OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[gbwead]

13 minutes ago, Munya said:

It was felt  that the nerfs to the ability may have been hasty. 

By being deliberately vague, you are spreading the blame to so many people and that's really not fair. Who felt that the nerfs were hasty?

For changing Sharpness from a x1.3 boost to a x1.4 boost, you named Rachel as the one we needed to convince for stopping that change. Who is it this time?

Edited December 27, 2023 by gbwead

[Munya]

If it requires dev intervention chances are you can blame us because we either greenlit it or did it ourselves.  I don't remember the specific discussion but I do know the want to keep it as close to its original implementation while not being broken is a dev desire though.

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, Munya said:

If it requires dev intervention chances are you can blame us because we either greenlit it or did it ourselves.

1. The introduction of Sharpness was a dev decision.
2. The Gallade ban was a TC decision.
3. The change from a ban to a 1.3 nerf was a dev decision.
4. The change from 1.3 to 1.4 was a dev decision.
5. The change from 1.4 to 1.5 was a dev decision.

The last 3 devs decisions have bypassed the Tier Council entirely. If the reasoning behind every Sharpness buff was that the nerfs were too hasty (litteraly what was said last time too), you're just blatantly saying that devs know better than TC when it comes to PvP. At least be honest and say: "devs want sharpness at 1.5, it has nothing to do with pvp, sorry, not sorry, it's not negociable". You don't have to even explain your reason, but please don't bullshit us. We're wasting our time arguing and discussing these pvp matters all for nothing because in the end it's all a big farce and nothing was ever up for discussion.

[Frag]

The mon got buffed because some very close friend of some dev just like to play with gallade, there's no other reason.

If that's how things works then there's no reason to discusss anything anymore

[Axelgor]

7 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The last 3 devs decisions have bypassed the Tier Council entirely

This is not true

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, Axelgor said:

This is not true

Where is the TC announcement that says otherwise?

[SuperBXdanielo]

Well, I don't think the gallade 1,5× was whitout reason, as it is a good way to balance the meta, and maybe the devs are doing this on purpose.

 

When you go to the high ladder, you find a meta dominated by stall and hyper offense, when balanced who should be the most consistent play style, it's not.

 

So to make the meta more balanced, we have especific counters to each of the dominant play styles, gallade 1,5× and even draco meteor hydreigon are coming back as the same time, and they both are great counters of stall teams. And this happened just after suicune being realesed, filling the position of a Hyper offense counter.

 

I have been playing pokemmo pvp since the HA realesed, and really think the TC is very stall oriented. Every time a new treath to stall is realesed, such as hydreigon draco meteor or 1,5× sharpness gallade, you guys start to talk about it like is the end of the world. But when suicune stall teams started to show up, despite suicune being way more broken than the ones I mentioned as it's two only safe counters being roar and trick, you guys just ignored it. I honestly prefer what the devs are doing over the TC decisions.

 

I am not advocating in favor of a suicune ban, just think that letting it ravage the high ladder when you guys cry about gallade and hydreigon is unfair. 

[caioxlive13]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:41 AM, gbwead said:

1. The introduction of Sharpness was a dev decision.
2. The Gallade ban was a TC decision.
3. The change from a ban to a 1.3 nerf was a dev decision.
4. The change from 1.3 to 1.4 was a dev decision.
5. The change from 1.4 to 1.5 was a dev decision.

The last 3 devs decisions have bypassed the Tier Council entirely. If the reasoning behind every Sharpness buff was that the nerfs were too hasty (litteraly what was said last time too), you're just blatantly saying that devs know better than TC when it comes to PvP. At least be honest and say: "devs want sharpness at 1.5, it has nothing to do with pvp, sorry, not sorry, it's not negociable". You don't have to even explain your reason, but please don't bullshit us. We're wasting our time arguing and discussing these pvp matters all for nothing because in the end it's all a big farce and nothing was ever up for discussion.

How the 3rd is a Dev decision? In the policy, a nerf has to happen when banning things to Ubers, and TC has to take part into the discussion according to the policy. 4th and 5th could be purely dev decisions, but 3rd is not exclusive from them, TC has taken part in the discussion to nerf Sharpness, or should've taken part at least.
 

Quote

Special Considerations and Rules

 

1. If a Pokemon is voted on and banned from OU (moved to Ubers), the tier council, overseeing staff, and developers will discuss how to best "nerf" said Pokemon for reintroduction. For example, Garchomp was banned from OU but reintroduced without Swords Dance, which was determined to be the reason it was broken. Similarly, Draco Meteor was removed from Hydreigon. If significant changes to the metagame have been implemented, these changes can be reversed through a suspect test if deemed appropriate by the tier council. Community members can suggest discussing these changes and a thread will be opened by a tier council member.

 

Edited January 1 by caioxlive13

[mxdzzz]

On 12/27/2023 at 9:49 AM, Axelgor said:

This is not true

Please post what TC discussion to the comminity. 

[DoubleJ]

TC Discussion: Zapdos to OU. 

 

Stoked to see the variability and skill shine through. A Pokemon that advantages all play styles and will have a positive impact through and through.

 

Rotom-W or Zapdos #1 ?!

[Doctor]

People are gonna complain about Zapdos + Suicune core being unbeatable soon enough, you read it here first

[caioxlive13]

4 minutes ago, Doctor said:

People are gonna complain about Zapdos + Suicune core being unbeatable soon enough, you read it here first

I've already experimented a simmilar offense core, Kou + suicune, and it's quite decent. Not an auto-win button though.

 

Edited January 2 by caioxlive13

[DoubleJ]

19 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

I've already experimented a simmilar offense core, Kou + suicune, and it's quite decent. Not an auto-win button though.

 

Chow so bad. Zap + 'cune isn't going to be powerful because of their offensive presence...

 

@Doctor tell 'em

[caioxlive13]

3 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Chow so bad. Zap + 'cune isn't going to be powerful because of their offensive presence...

 

@Doctor tell 'em

Zapdos as a tank is good, Suicune i'm not sure. It has to rely on Rest and Leftovers for recovery. And on this meta give the opponent free turns like rest forces you on doing, is very risky.

Edited January 2 by caioxlive13

[Doctor]

5 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Zapdos as a tank is good, Suicune i'm not sure. It has to rely on Rest and Leftovers for recovery. And on this meta give the opponent free turns like rest forces you on doing, is very risky.

Maybe this entire message is the sign that you should stop trying to have an opinion on stuff you don't understand nor know. Suicune's entire thing is being absurdly bulky, it's THE definition of a bulky water-type. Can create substitutes with more than 50 HP, which means it can easily beat Seismic Toss users when combined with Pressure; with 115 in both defenses it's absurdly sturdy, and even though its only reliable recovery is Rest, the CroCune build has been around since gen 3, abusing Calm Mind + RestTalk. It doesn't even need Rest, though, since Substitute + Calm Mind is already hard enough to deal with by anything not named Breloom; and it can easily carry Ice Beam over Protect to hit the kangaroo and any other grass type.

 

That's the thing about the core I mentioned, the combination of both Pokémon's great bulk with their typing is what makes it so strong. Zapdos covers the grass types of the meta with its typing + monster special attack for a Pokémon THAT bulky + base speed so Suicune doesn't have to worry about them; and Suicune covers the ice types that would hit Zapdos super effectively. Sure, you can still hit them both with electric moves, but you can cover that weakness easily with the rest of the team; and since most (all) of the Rock-type moves users are physical, Suicune can handle them just fine for Zapdos.

 

To clarify, I'm only explaining why I think people will complain, it's waaaaay too early to assess if this core is gonna be that problematic. Suicune was already a really strong Pokémon with little to no counterplay depending on the build if you don't carry Breloom/Serp/Raikou (and even then, depending on the state of the game, they often weren't enough), so now having a Volt Switch user as bulky as Zapdos and with such a good typing (Suicune also kind of struggled with setting up in front of stuff like Conkeldurr, which Zapdos + Suicune also happen to check) will probably make things worse, being able to pivot that easily between the two mons while dealing too much damage for a defensive core. And while Static is obviously the superior ability for Zapdos, having two Pressure users as a defensive core can get pretty nasty pretty fast.

 

No wonder Suicune + Raikou was underwhelming for you, mainly because Suicune, although it has decent enough stats to be built as a bulky sweeper, shines as a Bold Calm Mind abuser; and Raikou is just straight up a slightly better Jolteon, which was already not very good in the meta (hence its drop to UU). Let's not be rash, though, I hate when people scream "OVERPOWERED" in the first few weeks of a new metagame shift, and let's see how the meta develops and which niches does Zapdos fill, as it happens to also be a great Suicune check, which we were lacking.

 

tl;dr zapcune good, uninformed opinions bad

[razimove]

why are people comparing zapdos and raikou to start with, one is a different sprite jolteon almost, the other is an absolute unit of a pokemon

[Munya]

Please remain on topic, Caoix is not usable in any of the tiers and therefore is not a topic of discussion for this thread.

[caioxlive13]

13 hours ago, Doctor said:

No wonder Suicune + Raikou was underwhelming for you, mainly because Suicune, although it has decent enough stats to be built as a bulky sweeper, shines as a Bold Calm Mind abuser; and Raikou is just straight up a slightly better Jolteon, which was already not very good in the meta (hence its drop to UU). Let's not be rash, though, I hate when people scream "OVERPOWERED" in the first few weeks of a new metagame shift, and let's see how the meta develops and which niches does Zapdos fill, as it happens to also be a great Suicune check, which we were lacking.

 

tl;dr zapcune good, uninformed opinions bad

Zapdos is on the path to be #1 in OU. Even facing simmilar adversitys to Serperior and Suicune in acessibility, it hit 5% usage in 2 days it was released. And the fact that Both covers their weakness greatly is something notable. Only inaccuracy on your comment is about Zapdos's speed. Sure, 100 base is excelent, but there is still mons beyond that, lot of ties in the speed, also 80s with Scarf don't need to be +speed to outspeed you. 

Currently though people are exploring less Suicune + Zapdos and Zapdos are founding himself more often in Rain teams.

 

Spoiler

Also talking about suicune and raikou, it covers well one with other, not much as Zapdos but still a lot, also a pivot with 183 Speed is notable, can also attack serperior before take a hit, having a chance to KO or deal great dmg.

 

Edited January 2 by caioxlive13

[bobliu]

Zapdos has its position in almost all type of team, which make me exciting. For me, I would like to try it in rain team, cause it give lots of threat to water type stall and grass type stall, and I am not worried about hurricane and Thunder 70% hit rate. In addition, it is also good in some bulky offensive team and stall team, cause it is a good Volt switch pokemon, and can do many things such as defog. Although it cannot cover all the stuff which rotom-w does, it is also a good choice in building the team. Its weakness of stealth rock and rock type pokemon, means it must has some good teammates to deal with these difficulties.

To sum up, Zapdos is a good pokemon, which will also make our meta has lots of fun, people are more likely to try more kinds of team with Zapdos. What's more, it is also not such strong to destroy the balance, which means it will help our meta become healthier. 

To sum up, I really enjoy the game with Zapdos.

[Queza]

10 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Currently though people are exploring less Suicune + Zapdos and Zapdos are founding himself more often in Rain teams.

This is how i know you haven't played a single match this season, just watched one game and went "yup this a problem." there's no argument that zapdos cant be good on rain given it's got a favourable mu.

 

What Doctor said was to the T accurate, Zapdos is also great for most lead mu's, Garchomp with Orb SEdge has to scout for HP ice if their zapdos has some spatk invest + speed creeping, Excadrill once people adapt will learn that spdef is the way to go, Ttar or porygon is another great mon to answer these but positioning that can be difficult since they can just pivot and go into their answer. 

 

so far, this change is amazing and i'm so grateful to not be restricted with teambuilding. 

Edited January 3 by Queza

[caioxlive13]

8 hours ago, Queza said:

This is how i know you haven't played a single match this season, just watched one game and went "yup this a problem." there's no argument that zapdos cant be good on rain given it's got a favourable mu.

I'm talking that Zapdos is more common in Rain than paired with Suicune, you can see it checking Zapdos's common allies.

But still is uncommon yet, and will stay both below 8% usage for a long time....

[Queza]

58 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

I'm talking that Zapdos is more common in Rain than paired with Suicune, you can see it checking Zapdos's common allies.

But still is uncommon yet, and will stay both below 8% usage for a long time....

I'm telling you, as a abuser of the double pressure ZapCune that i've only face zapdos 3 times so far,  only one has been in rain and they were terrible. Do. Your. research. play. The. Game. And. Let. Community. Adapt. Before. Spewing. Nonsense.

[Godhelll]

Nobody is talking anymore, does that mean that Gallade and Hydreigon are gonna stay like that ?

[Doctor]

1 hour ago, Godhelll said:

Nobody is talking anymore, does that mean that Gallade and Hydreigon are gonna stay like that ?

I think it's more the fact that no matter what arguments we give they end up being ignored by devs so everyone's given up on that. Also, we just came out of an event, so I guess people haven't had the time to test how game-breaking those two are or aren't, myself included. Sometimes there's a big difference between theory and actual games, even if on paper something seems unbeatable, yadda, yadda, so I think it's better for the discussion if we give the new meta a bit of time to develop and see how it goes from there

[Godhelll]

1 hour ago, Doctor said:

I think it's more the fact that no matter what arguments we give they end up being ignored by devs so everyone's given up on that. Also, we just came out of an event, so I guess people haven't had the time to test how game-breaking those two are or aren't, myself included. Sometimes there's a big difference between theory and actual games, even if on paper something seems unbeatable, yadda, yadda, so I think it's better for the discussion if we give the new meta a bit of time to develop and see how it goes from there

It's boring, it's getting long, they're cancerizing the tier

Edited January 7 by Godhelll