November 2022-Movement Discussion Thread

[Munya]

No movements are set yet, this is purely a thread for discussion where people can bring up whatever they think is relevant as long as its on the topic of the tiers and things moving for whatever reason you want to argue for.  Off topic posts will still be removed and or warned for.

 

Based on usage the following things are above or below a 4.36% cutoff:

 

Crobat is above in OU

Jellicent and Cloyster are below in OU

Additionally Xatu, Staraptor, and Nidoking are all below in OU, but are new to having their HA, more on them near the bottom of the post.

 

Ambipom, Clefable, Golbat, and Poliwrath are above the cutoff in UU

Wobbuffet is below the cutoff in UU

 

Additionally, I went through and grabbed some usage of pokemon since their HA was released, this is a very limited scope look at these specific pokemon, it does not give a true reflection of the tier but it might still give an idea of what the future could potentially look like for each individual mon.

 

Usage taken from OU for each individual mons release time: First number is total times it was used, 2nd is usage%, third is times it won, and last is win%.  It doesn't look pretty but it was a very long and painful task to put this together.

Spoiler

The same as above but for UU:

Spoiler

 

If theres anything anybody wishes to see that doesn't involve full usage and doesn't go overboard, please let me know and I will see if I can do anything for it.

[RysPicz]

Crawdaunt, OU?

[Munya]

Its certainly up for discussion, we have another UU tournament sunday, I will be pulling usage from for a last minute look.

[gbwead]

Imo, all mons above the 4.36% cut-off point should automatically move up. All mons below the 4.36% cut-off point should not move down automatically, these move down decisions should be up to the TC.

 

With that being said, this is what I would do:

To OU:

• Ditto
• Nidoking
• Xatu
• Staraptor
• Crawdaunt 

To UU:

• Cloyster
• Jellicent
• Ambipom
• Clefable
• Poliwrath
• Golbat
• Quagsire
• Sableye
• Sharpedo

To NU:

• Wobbuffet

Any data on Gligar?

[Munya]

It was almost a full percent below the UU moveup cutoff.

EDIT: Just checked what I said in TC discord, it was over 1% below, was 3.09% usage since HA release.

[epicdavenport]

Does NU need to lose Poliwrath? It isn't any kind of broken in the tier and sporting a near similar usage in UU and NU. Also feel NU is losing the most out of the new changes as higher tiers adapt new choices like wrath to combat threats.

[Munya]

It doesn't need to no but if it maintains its usage going into the future its not something that we would prevent, its only on the table right now because of manual tier shifts and everything being kind of chaotic.

[TohnR]

I mean it's impossible not to see that Poliwrath is a centric mon for the UU metagame and the 3rd highest winrate (was 2nd before Crawdaunt got released, so it was already great before)
There is no way it doesn't reach 8-10% usage next month at least. It was already a niche pick before, it became standard in stall builds since Feral got its Hidden Ability and even more so now that we have Crawdaunt/Sharpedo HAs, it is even used in balanced/offense teams with different sets. 

I have played a bit on the ladder and while Crawdaunt isn't an auto win it still does a lot of work against teams that carry its counters (namely Poliwrath/Toxicroak) and has quite an easy time finding turns to get in on the field compared to other offensive powerhouses such as Mammoswine or Medicham.
Crawdaunt is kinda free momentum against Bronzong & Slowbro most notably, as well as Foulplay users such as Umbreon & Mandibuzz that can't really touch it
It is capable to win against offensive teams while being a Wallbreaker because of its overwhelming priority that can OHKO Arcanine, Nidoqueen, Venomoth, RotomH, Mamoswine, Yanmega, Zoroark, Mismagius & Krookodile after rocks. Even if you call the right move, mons such as Roserade die from Crab hammer + Aqua jet if it uses a standard moveset
I would say the main drawback to Crawdaunt is you are often forced into Crunch because of the high amount of Water Absorbers in the meta, but even then it's the only thing that prevents it from freely getting a kill every time it attacks. 

Other than that I don't think usage is very relevant especially in UU, where I've legit only seen people test the newer mons and use mostly Crawdaunt centered teams (either use it or counter it, basically). I don't think you should raise anything based on usage this month (as far as I know Ambipom, Clefable & Golbat didn't suddenly gain viability)
If you end up bringing Crobat up to OU regardless, please drop Jellicent to help against bugs such as Yanmega 🙂 

 

Also how come Wobbuffet isn't going to Uber instead ? 🤔
 

[Huargensy]

31 minutes ago, TohnR said:

 

 

Also how come Wobbuffet isn't going to Uber instead ? 🤔
 

The real question is why do they use wobbuffet in the first place?

[razimove]

1 hour ago, Huargensy said:

The real question is why do they use wobbuffet in the first place?

Trolling aside, speed wobb still fills a really good niche with no counter play if played properly, so the problem is still there, it still holds a niche, just cant tickle/encore forever to let you setup on anything like previously. I personally havent met any in close to 250 games between 2 accounts OU wise, but granted the meta is full of copycats, all it prob takes is some chinese picking it up.

 

 

[TohnR]

17 hours ago, Huargensy said:

The real question is why do they use wobbuffet in the first place?

Because it is the best support for setting up available... It's way better than Screens Electrode in Under Used in my opinion
Sure those teams are very coinflip teams that aren't consistent long term, but they're still uncompetitive.
That is because you cannot really play around wobbuffet itself since they will threaten you with unstoppable setup options if you get encored into any other move that actually threatens it, if they built their team properly.
I'm purely talking about how it is in UU at least, but I know that if it is deemed uncompetitive a certain someone will ask that it is for every tier out of tiering consistency 

Edited October 26, 2022 by TohnR

[Munya]

Votes aren't final until Monday when I make the changes but as votes currently stand the following will occur unless anything changes:

To OU:

Crobat

Ditto

 

To UU from OU:

Cloyster

Jellicent

Xatu

 

To UU from NU:

Sharpedo

Quagsire

 

 

As it currently stands Crawdaunt will be remaining UU and Feraligatr as well.

 

 

[gbwead]

I like these movements. I don't feel that strongly about Xatu. However, I really think Golbat and Sableye should be moved to UU. 

 

Sableye and Quagsire were released roughly at the same time, but Sableye has more usage than Quagsire in UU. Imo, in order to stay consistent, if Quagsire moves up, Sableye should definetly move up as well. 

 

Golbat will end up UU. With Crobat gone, Golbat will need to do what it can to take its place in UU. I don't see why Golbat should remain NU when it will inevitably move up. With 4.74% usage, Golbat is also above the 4.36% cut-off point. Please reconsider this movement.

 

[EmilioGarras]

Great changes, I'm just curious to see what other pokemon with HA pop. 
This month is gonna be a fight in UU between Fera and Crawdaunt to see which one will raise to OU (Definetively Crawdaunt lol) 

[Thenavarro]

6 hours ago, Munya said:

To UU from NU:

Sharpedo

Quagsire

Poliwrath and golbat are well above 4.36% usage

[Umbramol]

I'm struggling to understand the process a bit. as wallaro says there are other mons below or above the cut off. you are not gonna apply movement changes to all the pokemon? we are gonna move some of them based on usage? if yes, why? just need those stuff clarified

[Munya]

6 hours ago, gbwead said:

I like these movements. I don't feel that strongly about Xatu. However, I really think Golbat and Sableye should be moved to UU. 

 

Sableye and Quagsire were released roughly at the same time, but Sableye has more usage than Quagsire in UU. Imo, in order to stay consistent, if Quagsire moves up, Sableye should definetly move up as well. 

 

Golbat will end up UU. With Crobat gone, Golbat will need to do what it can to take its place in UU. I don't see why Golbat should remain NU when it will inevitably move up. With 4.74% usage, Golbat is also above the 4.36% cut-off point. Please reconsider this movement.

 

Re sablye i dont disagree but golbat i was on the fence with, its over cutoff but is declining based off the snapshot that was taken given it was small. 

 

Would also probably move Clef, ambi, and poliwrath, especially if all of those spikes coincide with the release of HAs but i would need to check, will when im back at my pc.

 

No its not entirely usage based Umbra, they should be picking where things are likely to end up based off data given to them similar to initial placement but a bit more informed.

I do think its hard to defend making some of the Uu based movements while not doing others but they have been informed they will need to defend those positions here

[Munya]

Posted in the wrong thread.

 

Poliwraths usage since the release of Crawdaunt into UU.

 

 

[EmilioGarras]

My boy Poliwrath being relevant now is mega crazy at least for me. Really interesting how the tiering is turning out x) 

[DoubleJ]

Wrath is the epitome of stopping set up physical offense from water/dark. 

 

Water Absorb.

Circle Throw.

Scald.

Stab Priority (Vacuum Wave).

 

 

 

[Umbramol]

So you are gonna move some pokemons and some not? that is incredibly inconsistent man. moving crobat up but not moving nidoking down while moving quagsire and sableye but not poliwrath which is above cut off? i dont know what we are gonna achieve with this. wasnt the initial plan to not move stuff during the end of this month? i saw you writing this somewhere.

I believe that said mons that you are debating about plus more will show where they belong if you give the players a bigger transition period. 

[juajuajua]

14 hours ago, Munya said:

Votes aren't final until Monday when I make the changes but as votes currently stand the following will occur unless anything changes:

To OU:

Crobat

Ditto

 

To UU from OU:

Cloyster

Jellicent

Xatu

 

To UU from NU:

Sharpedo

Quagsire

 

 

As it currently stands Crawdaunt will be remaining UU and Feraligatr as well.

 

 

now raise sableye and perhaps the era of stall may stop for a time

 

[gbwead]

Votes aren't finals most likely mean that they are still voting on other mons.

[epicdavenport]

14 hours ago, gbwead said:

I like these movements. I don't feel that strongly about Xatu. However, I really think Golbat and Sableye should be moved to UU. 

 

Sableye and Quagsire were released roughly at the same time, but Sableye has more usage than Quagsire in UU. Imo, in order to stay consistent, if Quagsire moves up, Sableye should definetly move up as well. 

 

Golbat will end up UU. With Crobat gone, Golbat will need to do what it can to take its place in UU. I don't see why Golbat should remain NU when it will inevitably move up. With 4.74% usage, Golbat is also above the 4.36% cut-off point. Please reconsider this movement.

 

If we lose quag, poli, and golbat I feel Blaziken needs to be tested for BL.

[Imperial]

8 hours ago, epicdavenport said:

If we lose quag, poli, and golbat I feel Blaziken needs to be tested for BL.

I noticed you love mentioning Blaziken - I agree it can be a problem but there are still some checks, some more viable than others:

Altaria , Rotom , Gligar , Steelix , Slowking , Hitmontop , Qwilfish , Stunfisk/Seismitoad/Sandslash , Mantine 

 

Blaziken would either need to run Ice Punch or Thunder Punch, meaning that some of the mons listed above can check it reliably. 

 

I would also include Sableye but I don't know how much longer it'll end up staying in the tier.

 

It's also vulnerable to being revenge killed killed by Hitmonchan, Ambipom and Samurott (quite niche) and other scarf mons.

 

The mixed/specs set can be troublesome, but I still feel both are manageable and the annoying thing about Blaziken is its continuous ability to pivot using U-turn.

 

Is Blaziken centralising? Yes. Does it need to be banned? No. 

 

If Tier Council are happy to keep more threatening Pokemon such as Feraligatr and Crawdaunt in UU, there's no reason why Blaziken can't stay in NU.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Imperial