3 hours ago, Imperial said:

Blaziken would either need to run Ice Punch or Thunder Punch, meaning that some of the mons listed above can check it reliably. 

It can't run Ice Punch.

3 hours ago, Imperial said:

I noticed you love mentioning Blaziken - I agree it can be a problem but there are still some checks, some more viable than others:

Altaria , Rotom , Gligar , Steelix , Slowking , Hitmontop , Qwilfish , Stunfisk/Seismitoad/Sandslash , Mantine 

 

Blaziken would either need to run Ice Punch or Thunder Punch, meaning that some of the mons listed above can check it reliably. 

 

I would also include Sableye but I don't know how much longer it'll end up staying in the tier.

 

It's also vulnerable to being revenge killed killed by Hitmonchan, Ambipom and Samurott (quite niche) and other scarf mons.

 

The mixed/specs set can be troublesome, but I still feel both are manageable and the annoying thing about Blaziken is its continuous ability to pivot using U-turn.

 

Is Blaziken centralising? Yes. Does it need to be banned? No. 

 

If Tier Council are happy to keep more threatening Pokemon such as Feraligatr and Crawdaunt in UU, there's no reason why Blaziken can't stay in NU.

I honestly feel like scarf ken is the least concerning set to even consider, but all in all, out of all you mention, there are only 3, maybe 4 that safely deal with it. Blaziken is strong and it always has been, heck if we had HA, it would probably become a OU staple even, but it can be checked by a lot of stuff, scarf ken is heavily punished by rocky helmet spam, mixed natures due to speed tiers and 4mss syndrome Etc.

 

Main point id address rn is if this monthly tier shift shouldnt be manual this time? Usages are all still unstable due to HA coming and meta didnt adapt fast enough to it imo

8 hours ago, razimove said:

I honestly feel like scarf ken is the least concerning set to even consider, but all in all, out of all you mention, there are only 3, maybe 4 that safely deal with it. Blaziken is strong and it always has been, heck if we had HA, it would probably become a OU staple even, but it can be checked by a lot of stuff, scarf ken is heavily punished by rocky helmet spam, mixed natures due to speed tiers and 4mss syndrome Etc.

 

Main point id address rn is if this monthly tier shift shouldnt be manual this time? Usages are all still unstable due to HA coming and meta didnt adapt fast enough to it imo

Well, I think the best thing is to try a different system to build the tiers. Usage in the current way is very flawed. The best I think is that the usage should keep, but: 450- Elo Players(Low Ladder) should not have usage counted. 450-650 Elo Players(Mid-Ladder) could even have usage counted, but with a weight of 0.5. 650+ Elo Players would have usage counted normally. Why? Because of a phenomenon called "New Toy Syndrome". Basically when something is released players tend to use it more. On the high ladder people quickly notice when the poke is Gimmick and stop using it very soon. The opposite happens in the Low ladder. Also, the usage of very gimmick mons that only Low Ladder will use, will simply vanish. But if applicate, devs need to do one of the two following things: 

1. Classify a people on a rank based on previous season. Example:
   450- elo players starts on 450 next season
   450-550 elo players starts on 500 next season
   550-650 elo players starts on 550 next season
   650+ elo players starts on 650 next season
2. Disconsider "First season month" usage to do movements.

With the chaos and "New Toy Syndrome" attacking at full power, isn't good idea keep with usage system in the format that he are.

From the Caoix tournament this morning.

Poliwrath NU?!? xD

I don't think it would make any sense to raise Quags and Sharpedo which are lower than Sableye, Poliwrath, Clef, Golbat, Ambipom & possibly some others. 
I guess you saw that Golbat isn't used with Infiltrator in UU so you thought that HAs have no impact on that hence no movements. I would agree !

However if you're raising Crobat it's obvious that Golbat - even if it is worse - will end up in the top10 usages for UU next month so you should preemptively raise it, all the more since it is already above the cutoff. For Poliwrath, it is literally one of the central mons of the tier what is the reasoning for keeping it in NU ?

Cloyster, Jellicent & Xatu are fine, wouldn't Ludicolo also drop in that situation ? 

Edited October 30, 20222 yr by TohnR

Todays the last day for them to change their minds but as it stands the changes are going to be happening as stated earlier.  Some votes have shifted but not enough to change anything.

 

22 minutes ago, Munya said:

Todays the last day for them to change their minds but as it stands the changes are going to be happening as stated earlier.  Some votes have shifted but not enough to change anything.

 

xatu, raptor and nidoking are dropping to uu? or staying ou?

what's the reasoning for poliwrath staying NU?

 

Xatu, cloyster, and jellicent will be dropping, raptor and king will be staying OU

I had voted to keep it NU when it had mediocre usage, but now it's settled itself. I agree that it should rise. All eyes on Sharpedo now. 

What I don't understand is why you would have to vote for usage movements ? 
Aren't those done by default ? 
Gonna ask the same question again but how come some 2% mons will be raising while 5% ones won't ? That's very counter intuitive and can't be justified without proper arguments 
You can't just say "We had 5 dudes that don't play the tier vote, they think those 2% mons are more relevant than the 5% ones so they'll raise"

Because these arent hard usage movements, usage this month was entirely just a piece of data used to inform not decide. Given the relatively small amount of data we have for the lower tiers

Poliwrath is now set to move up to uu

Ya the data is weak with all the drops happening at different times. We gotta think beyond the numbers just a bit. 

I mean fair but if you disregard usages strict rule, then you have to provide actual arguments or reasoning to TC's decisions.
You can't just drop random incoherent movements and expect it'll be fine. 
So far all arguments I've read from TC towards Crobat & Ditto to raise to OU were purely usage related. Again they are not bad changes, it's just extremely confusing.
So far all arguments I've read from TC about Sharpedo & Quagsire to raise to UU were ... wait ? Yea there wasn't even any justification to these ever
I'm just asking for facts. We can't discuss if no point is made in the first place ...

Edited October 31, 20222 yr by TohnR

OU usage is a bit different as there's actually significant data there but I do agree people need to start being more open with their reasonings, and in the future we are going to be easing into participating in these discussions becoming a requirement for the TC for a more open line of communication.  I am sure it is a bit intimidating for them though so I do ask for a bit of patience and hopefully we can start seeing more active community participation from them.  That isn't an excuse though, I will continue to request that more of them post why they went a particular direction with things here and hopefully some satisfying answers will be given.

 

I know for some pokemon(Poliwrath) some voted one way but only if x mon hadn't been voted up, so once thing was voted up, they changed the other thing.  In this case, Sharpedo being the mon in question that directly effected their opinion on poliwraths movement.

2 hours ago, TohnR said:

I mean fair but if you disregard usages strict rule, then you have to provide actual arguments or reasoning to TC's decisions.
You can't just drop random incoherent movements and expect it'll be fine. 
So far all arguments I've read from TC towards Crobat & Ditto to raise to OU were purely usage related. Again they are not bad changes, it's just extremely confusing.
So far all arguments I've read from TC about Sharpedo & Quagsire to raise to UU were ... wait ? Yea there wasn't even any justification to these ever
I'm just asking for facts. We can't discuss if no point is made in the first place ...

I believe Sharpedo is extremely strong in NU with speed boost, being able to run physical/special/mixed sets and not being revenge killed by any scarfer makes it a threat that I don't think NU can handle properly. The fact that Poliwrath will rise to UU would make things even worse, I prefer Sharpedo being in the same tier as Poliwrath.

As for Quagsire, I voted for it to stay in NU as it is doing fine in that tier and is a good check for top tiers mons like Blaziken. In my opinion Quagsire should only rise in UU by usage

Edited October 31, 20222 yr by Azphiel

Thanks for your answers 🙂 

Edited October 31, 20222 yr by TohnR

2.9% usage on Nidoking and not even in the discussion. Send the pokemon to UU already. Xatu got it's hidden ability later and it moved.

Xatu was under the cutoff at every point, when you look at king from when it was released onward it is actually above.

Have all HAs been released? All we have been getting are repeats.

New ones are still being released, but as it gets closer to the end of the list its obviously going to be rarer, and the ones that have been recently have been insignificant.

1 hour ago, Munya said:

New ones are still being released, but as it gets closer to the end of the list its obviously going to be rarer, and the ones that have been recently have been insignificant.

Hoping for aftermath garbodor 

For me it's Magic Guard Alakazam 🙏

regen tangrowth 😋