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Can we bring back LC (LittleCup) Tier Officially?

VelvetLlama

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VelvetLlama

VelvetLlama

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Hello! I am VelvetLlama, Co-owner of Team [ROO]. This is going to be my suggestion on bringing back the LC (Little Cup) tier Officially. I saw it was an Official Tier back Pre-2020. (Announcement was made stating they are ending the tier officially on Dec. 28th 2020) but I think enough time has passed and still see an active community in the Tier that it should be taken into consideration to bring it back. 

I have some reasons why I think we should bring it back officially. First one is because it is one of the unofficial formats that I have been seeing a lot about it again. We have the LCPL (Little Cup Premier League) tournaments that are held yearly with HUGE prize-pools, the PokeMMO World Cups, and also the LC club weekly tournaments. Along with the Recent Patrouski Video on covering the Multiverse Tournament that is coming up has shed a lot of light onto the semi forgotten tier. 
 

There has been some discussion about dilemmas and solutions of the tier in previous topics that are on the forums. Like example, “The LC tier had a lot of bans and even ability bans (Download). Devs do not like tiers with a lot of bans.” The most likely problem is that tiers with high ban-lists are difficult to control. So a solution is simple: Leave the LC still under the control of the LC Club. What club leaders or moderators of the club can do is notify the devs in case of Bans on the monthly movement thread when the next one opens like I assume the tier council already does for the other tiers. The LC tier did not have a large player base because devs did not give us LC matchmaking, so that's an easy fix as well. Will they most likely have a smaller player-base on start? Yes, I believe that it's normal with any introduction of something new. But the player-base will increase with time, especially when most lucrative tours are on LC, so a lot of players will want to play and go for these prizes. Like the Multiverse Tournament stated above. I don’t think it would impact the other tiers at all. As they all already have a decent player base. Some might say that The LC tier didn't have a very versatile meta-game and was always defined by very high usage mons that usually ended up banned. But isnt that how OU is currently is to a point? Take example Galade and the sharpness ability. Was brought in, Banned instantly due to how overpowered it was and its usage, and now it has been nerfed hard. Each Tier has its ups and downs but overall I think bringing back this Tier officially would be a good thing for alot of people as it brings a more unique experience with PokeMMO and its PvP.


Sources:
https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/150842-little-cup-dilemma-possible-reasons-for-its-removal-and-possible-solutions/#comment-1947382
https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/131653-deprecation-of-little-cup-tier/#comment-1768413
https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/157378-the-official-multiverse-tournament-of-power-1billion-prize-poolsunday-5-november/
https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/150666-wc-6-pokemmo-world-cup-6th-edition-general-thread-july-23rd-2023-to-october-29th-2023/
https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/158552-pvp-where-to-play-little-cup/#comment-2012319
https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/158551-lc-little-cup-weekly-tournaments/#comment-2012312

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DrakeHope

DrakeHope

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I believe one of the main reason that made LC unofficial was the lack of player ( 32 spot tournament rarely full and 64 spot tournament Never full ) last LCPL we got 120 sign up, LCPL 2 was 83 and LCPL 1 80, the LC community is growing and i think the actual community got enough player to make 64 spot tournament full.

 

I don't Ask to make LC a official tier again without at least testing it. But it clearly deserve a test from devs.

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VelvetLlama

VelvetLlama

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6 minutes ago, DrakeHope said:

I believe one of the main reason that made LC unofficial was the lack of player ( 32 spot tournament rarely full and 64 spot tournament Never full ) last LCPL we got 120 sign up, LCPL 2 was 83 and LCPL 1 80, the LC community is growing and i think the actual community got enough player to make 64 spot tournament full.

 

I don't Ask to make LC a official tier again without at least testing it. But it clearly deserve a test from devs.

Yes for sure the community is growing. Thats good stats about the sign ups for the LCPL! Also i agree that LC clearly deserves a test from devs.

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NiceRNGbro

NiceRNGbro

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I'm a 2020 player, when I came to the game I remember LC tournaments happening, please make that happen again, but with matchmaking💗

 

I always wanted to play LC, but when I was going to join the tier it was removed 

 

There is no way to say currently that there is no playerbase to play, as soon as it is added, even those who don't play LC will certainly get excited and start playing, over time, it will be as active a tier as the others 

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Poufilou

Poufilou

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The weekly tournaments I hold have a solid 20 players average participation. Considering these are always the same time and being limited in advertising as unofficial event, it's a pretty solid player base. LCPL has been very successful aswell and this tier has brought attention to many new players. 

 

It would be nice to think about the re-introduction of this tier into the official calendar of PokeMMO activity of either devs (with matchmaking) or staff (with tournaments). 

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DrakeHope

DrakeHope

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19 hours ago, awaLLz said:

We just need at least a Matchmaking ranked system for LC and that it, official tours can wait... exactly like Randoms in the game.

A matchmaking ranked would be the best thing devs and staff dont need to care about it bcs no tournament, we already have a random battles as matchmaking and its not a tier so why not LC ? Also it would be easier for New player to learn by watching matchmaking and trying lc with a matchmaking since u Can play it anytime

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VelvetLlama

VelvetLlama

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14 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

I've noticed some posts mine got hid due to be off-topic, and i can ensure some there deserved more than my post but fine.

Honestly i'm on favor of LC returning as official tier, but I'm against LC receive VIP treatment. Even if they're not played that much as LC, OMs
should be added if LC gets added. 

- "But those metas has no playerbase" - UU, NU and Dubs on recent years has almost no active playerbase(12 minutes to found a match on MM
is ridiculous), their matches are basically the same people over the last 2 years, and those metas wasn't deactivated. LC was asked back in late 2021,
yup he has small playerbase at the time(Just a bit larger than today's OMs playerbase), the playerbase rose in recent years due to ridiculous high
prize of LCPL II and III. On same ways LC can growth, OMs can growth as well. 

- Also something is forgotten: Eventually the fight LC is doing now, OMs will start in near future. Due to PCL, VGC tour stuff, and other tours there (grand slam) 
the interess on those formats are growning. Why not a solution that thinks on long-term and save devs's time, so they can focus on other things
that community does 1567 posts asking, like Dungeons? No one likes to do Double job, so if we want to convince the devs of doing something, 
the solution should be definitive to not come back in simmilar topics anytime soon.

"Honestly i'm on favor of LC returning as official tier, " is really the only thing you needed to say. Again this is about LC not these other formats you keep bringing up. @caioxlive13

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razimove

razimove

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I dont see any harm in tours coming back, the reality was that even 32 player tournaments would fail to fill on active hours, but it still had a niche in the community. The only reason I can see for them to not allow them is tournaments being exploitable by friends who join this non filled tournaments to win trade for free shinies/rp, but that is still done to this day on other tiers aswell, just look at semis and above where people dodge/play metronome/etc on other tiers and formats, they just need to implement strict rules on it.

 

Off topic, but velvet you'll soon realize the best thing you can do is ignore him.

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CanadaSorry

CanadaSorry

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I think little cup coming back would be a pretty cool thing. To at least have it in matchmaking as a possibilty to play for fun, even if its not available for ranked play, would be a good start. At least some extra exposure to the tier.

 

I can see even from a PvP exclusive vanity standpoint, that would make things a little bit wierd.....but its also an opportunity to create a new set of 4 pvp hats, or have a new hat that repeats each month.

 

Either way, vanities and ranked play aside, the little cup tier hasnt really died since it was removed by staff. It just doesnt see much light or acknowledgment anymore because unless you know a friend thats kinda "into" Little cup fighting, most new players dont even really understand the concept of it. And in turn that further reduces the chance of more newcomers joining the little cup race. There have been many times where ive had to explain to someone actually decent at pvp, that there actually was (and still kinda is) a specific tier for unevolved pokemon to fight in. And it requires a completely different mindset similar to OU vs NU vs Doubles. With the expanding community due to johto/HAs/More events, i think the LC addition would be awesome.

 

You dont know what you didnt know, until it is pointed out to you, that you didnt actually know about it in the first place. 

 

Bring back little cup ♡♡

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LeZenor

LeZenor

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LC in PokeMMO history is a complicated case. I was there when LC was reintroduced and seen the hype it gathered but it never managed to keep the momentum and I was also there when it eventually died out. I have managed Yetto's Taillow Time back in my staff days for about 2 years from late 2018 to late 2020 and I've seen with my very own eyes the slow decline of LC. It went from easily filling 32-seat tour in the first months to barely filling them after a while, then when the decision was made to change them into 16-seat tour, it didn't take long before it also had issues filling seats. As time passed, little by little, the LC community kept shrinking in size until eventually staff pulled the plug. So what happened? What caused the downfall of LC? Was it inevitable? Could it have been prevented? Well I don't have all the answers and we will never really know for sure. I also don't think there's one reason in particular that caused the decline but I think these factors surely didn't help:

  • Absence of ranked matchmaking for LC;
  • LC being overshadowed by other Tiers due it's gimmick and niche nature;
  • Perhaps at the time there was a lack of official LC tournaments and support, which I think might be true;
  • Perhaps at the time there was a slow decline in general player population between two major updates, which I also think might be true;

Now it's been a few years since LC stopped being officially supported but has things really changed that much so that it would warrant its reintroduction? Here is what I can assess from my current and past observations :

  1. Little Cup is a gimmick tier by nature and that will never change, as much as I appreciate LC it is much more of a gimmick than OU/UU/NU are and poses a challenge when it comes to attracting new players. OU attracts the majority of players and especially new players. It has a sets of extensive rules and bans other tiers don't which might be less appealing;
  2. Little Cup is very niche, it's rarely the first pick choice for any newcomers, they tend to go with the most played tier. It's usually played by relatively old or experienced player. Building around LC was much more difficult to beginners due to how stats are calculated and all. However, although still underground, there is now a fully dedicated server (LCPL) with guides and stat calculator and with its members offering assistance as well. It's still is a niche but it’s much more approachable;
  3. Little Cup was never given the same opportunities as the other tiers, it never had matchmaking and thus it never stood a chance. We will never know if it could have been sustainable with a MM system. (I personally think it would have not made much a difference but I'm ready to be proven wrong, I've seen some players bring up that point which is only fair);
  4. Tournaments would fail to fill all seats even in prime time. It would fail to fill 32-seat tour and would fail to fill 16-seat tour. Now it regained attraction with LCPL which allows for better organization and management, plus introduction of hidden abilities helped for most tiers. Is that enough though, how long will it last? Hopefully long enough but it's not a certainty either;
  5. Little Cup died before because it didn't have enough new players joining in vs old player departing. Over time it just got barely sustainable. The lack of exposure surely didn't help, as well as everything mentioned above. I’m unsure if it would be significant however;
  6. Little Cup was and is a generally stable tier, Pokemon rarely get banned and usages rarely move. I say generally because addition of hidden abilities shuffled things up a bit but once it settles I can only assume that it will remain relatively stable. Most Pokemon from 5 years ago are still the most played in term of usage as of today. which is a good thing if you want to get into LC;
  7. While OU/UU/NU are much less stable tiers, pokemon from lower tiers can have other usages in upper tiers and vice versa when they eventually move down a tier. Same for doubles. LC in the other hand requires specific breeds of pokemon that gets used in LC solely. This comes with a cost, and given the choice, most players will sadly find it more practical to spend their resources elsewhere;
  8. The more matchmaking options there are, the more the competitive scene gets sparse. The addition of LC on top of already having OU/UU/NU/Doubles and Randoms wouldn't help LC. Honestly though I'd trade randbats for LC anytime because holy this is even more gimmicky and just a nuisance for other tiers;
  9. We don't really know how LC will be affected once the Johto hype fades out and months or years go by without major updates. For now it's only been great but how long till we see the effects. I think LC will be the first community impacted by a decrease in player population due to its relatively small playerbase.

LC still has its issues and challenges for sure. Some that will never change no matter how we look at it. But I think if we do things differently this time around it might have a chance to work. There is a dedicated community that keeps it alive and well, although very small in comparison to official tiers but significant compared to other unofficial tiers. The tier has also more merits than Randbats too. In some ways I feel randbats robbed LC from ever having any other opportunities. Randoms will always outperform LC, heck I'm pretty sure it outperforms UU and NU because there are no comps requirement and is easily accessible (hence why I consider it a nuisance). With all things considered I think LC deserves another chance, with ALL the same chances as other tiers and NOT put aside as a lesser tier. Otherwise it is doomed to fail again.

Edited by LeZenor
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DrakeHope

DrakeHope

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On 10/5/2023 at 8:35 AM, LeZenor said:

LC in PokeMMO history is a complicated case. I was there when LC was reintroduced and seen the hype it gathered but it never managed to keep the momentum and I was also there when it eventually died out. I have managed Yetto's Taillow Time back in my staff days for about 2 years from late 2018 to late 2020 and I've seen with my very own eyes the slow decline of LC. It went from easily filling 32-seat tour in the first months to barely filling them after a while, then when the decision was made to change them into 16-seat tour, it didn't take long before it also had issues filling seats. As time passed, little by little, the LC community kept shrinking in size until eventually staff pulled the plug. So what happened? What caused the downfall of LC? Was it inevitable? Could it have been prevented? Well I don't have all the answers and we will never really know for sure. I also don't think there's one reason in particular that caused the decline but I think these factors surely didn't help:

  • Absence of ranked matchmaking for LC;
  • LC being overshadowed by other Tiers due it's gimmick and niche nature;
  • Perhaps at the time there was a lack of official LC tournaments and support, which I think might be true;
  • Perhaps at the time there was a slow decline in general player population between two major updates, which I also think might be true;

Now it's been a few years since LC stopped being officially supported but has things really changed that much so that it would warrant its reintroduction? Here is what I can assess from my current and past observations :

  1. Little Cup is a gimmick tier by nature and that will never change, as much as I appreciate LC it is much more of a gimmick than OU/UU/NU are and poses a challenge when it comes to attracting new players. OU attracts the majority of players and especially new players. It has a sets of extensive rules and bans other tiers don't which might be less appealing;
  2. Little Cup is very niche, it's rarely the first pick choice for any newcomers, they tend to go with the most played tier. It's usually played by relatively old or experienced player. Building around LC was much more difficult to beginners due to how stats are calculated and all. However, although still underground, there is now a fully dedicated server (LCPL) with guides and stat calculator and with its members offering assistance as well. It's still is a niche but it’s much more approachable;
  3. Little Cup was never given the same opportunities as the other tiers, it never had matchmaking and thus it never stood a chance. We will never know if it could have been sustainable with a MM system. (I personally think it would have not made much a difference but I'm ready to be proven wrong, I've seen some players bring up that point which is only fair);
  4. Tournaments would fail to fill all seats even in prime time. It would fail to fill 32-seat tour and would fail to fill 16-seat tour. Now it regained attraction with LCPL which allows for better organization and management, plus introduction of hidden abilities helped for most tiers. Is that enough though, how long will it last? Hopefully long enough but it's not a certainty either;
  5. Little Cup died before because it didn't have enough new players joining in vs old player departing. Over time it just got barely sustainable. The lack of exposure surely didn't help, as well as everything mentioned above. I’m unsure if it would be significant however;
  6. Little Cup was and is a generally stable tier, Pokemon rarely get banned and usages rarely move. I say generally because addition of hidden abilities shuffled things up a bit but once it settles I can only assume that it will remain relatively stable. Most Pokemon from 5 years ago are still the most played in term of usage as of today. which is a good thing if you want to get into LC;
  7. While OU/UU/NU are much less stable tiers, pokemon from lower tiers can have other usages in upper tiers and vice versa when they eventually move down a tier. Same for doubles. LC in the other hand requires specific breeds of pokemon that gets used in LC solely. This comes with a cost, and given the choice, most players will sadly find it more practical to spend their resources elsewhere;
  8. The more matchmaking options there are, the more the competitive scene gets sparse. The addition of LC on top of already having OU/UU/NU/Doubles and Randoms wouldn't help LC. Honestly though I'd trade randbats for LC anytime because holy this is even more gimmicky and just a nuisance for other tiers;
  9. We don't really know how LC will be affected once the Johto hype fades out and months or years go by without major updates. For now it's only been great but how long till we see the effects. I think LC will be the first community impacted by a decrease in player population due to its relatively small playerbase.

LC still has its issues and challenges for sure. Some that will never change no matter how we look at it. But I think if we do things differently this time around it might have a chance to work. There is a dedicated community that keeps it alive and well, although very small in comparison to official tiers but significant compared to other unofficial tiers. The tier has also more merits than Randbats too. In some ways I feel randbats robbed LC from ever having any other opportunities. Randoms will always outperform LC, heck I'm pretty sure it outperforms UU and NU because there are no comps requirement and is easily accessible (hence why I consider it a nuisance). With all things considered I think LC deserves another chance, with ALL the same chances as other tiers and NOT put aside as a lesser tier. Otherwise it is doomed to fail again.

You pretty much resumed everything.

 

Imo the biggest issue back when LC was still available is that there was no real organized community around LC. If u didn't have friends or teammate that used to play LC then it was a very lonely experience, no one to talk meta, no one to train ect... Basically between 2 LC tournaments there was nothing to do for a LC player and because of that no one was a main LC. Not even me who now claim to be a LC main would have said in late 2020 that LC was my main tier. There was no benefits being a main LC compared to being a main OU/UU/NU or even Dubs. No MatchMaking meant that LC was doomed. If we had some MatchMaking, we could at least test our teams and comps. I'm sure some people would have stay loyal to LC and i'm pretty sure that 16 seats tournament would still be filled to this day, even if you don't agree and i hope that if MatchMaking LC is one day introduced then we will be able to prove you wrong.


Now LC have a real community with player who main LC as a tier even if it's unofficial, the meta is stable and people who join the LC club or LCPL discord new and old get all the help they need. I also would like to add some data from LCPL 3 which got 120 sign up, out of those 120 sign up, 96 player got drafted in different team out of those 96 drafted players 45 played LC OU ( Official LC if it come back as official ) Meaning that at least 45 people have enough LC ressources to play LC tour and hypothetically 96 players have the ressources to play LC. For me it is therefore entirely possible that today the LC community fills tournaments with 32 seats easily, for 64 seats tournaments i prefer not to comment yet but judging just from LCPL 3 stats it is possible to also fill them 

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Bertolfoso

Bertolfoso

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On 10/7/2023 at 9:10 PM, DrakeHope said:

You pretty much resumed everything.

 

Imo the biggest issue back when LC was still available is that there was no real organized community around LC. If u didn't have friends or teammate that used to play LC then it was a very lonely experience, no one to talk meta, no one to train ect... Basically between 2 LC tournaments there was nothing to do for a LC player and because of that no one was a main LC. Not even me who now claim to be a LC main would have said in late 2020 that LC was my main tier. There was no benefits being a main LC compared to being a main OU/UU/NU or even Dubs. No MatchMaking meant that LC was doomed. If we had some MatchMaking, we could at least test our teams and comps. I'm sure some people would have stay loyal to LC and i'm pretty sure that 16 seats tournament would still be filled to this day, even if you don't agree and i hope that if MatchMaking LC is one day introduced then we will be able to prove you wrong.


Now LC have a real community with player who main LC as a tier even if it's unofficial, the meta is stable and people who join the LC club or LCPL discord new and old get all the help they need. I also would like to add some data from LCPL 3 which got 120 sign up, out of those 120 sign up, 96 player got drafted in different team out of those 96 drafted players 45 played LC OU ( Official LC if it come back as official ) Meaning that at least 45 people have enough LC ressources to play LC tour and hypothetically 96 players have the ressources to play LC. For me it is therefore entirely possible that today the LC community fills tournaments with 32 seats easily, for 64 seats tournaments i prefer not to comment yet but judging just from LCPL 3 stats it is possible to also fill them 

While I wasn't here during the LC days, I don't think "not being able to fill tournaments" should be a valid complain towards LC. Many UU and NU tournaments also fail to reach the player limit, including a UU season finale some time ago.

 

Just the fact that it would be a new shiny thing would bring many people into LC and boost the playerbase even more

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