Azphiel Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 What is this ? This thread is being opened to discuss Entei and its dominance in the UnderUsed Tier (UU) since its introduction in October 2023. Characteristics : -Entei has a strong attack stat that makes it ideal as a physical attacker. It's usually used with a Choice Band and has access to a signature move called Sacred Fire : 100 BP, 95% Accuracy, 8 PPs, 50% chance of burning, non-contact move (Fire type; Physical). This move in particular is very spammable, the Entei clicking Sacred Fire will usually get rewarded because a burn is very likely to happen, and is very difficult to punish, especially since it does not make contact. -Entei has a 100 base speed stat which is excellent for UU standards. This allows Entei to outspeed key threats like PorygonZ, Sigilyph, Yanmega, Nidoking, Heracross and so on. It ties with Flygon, which is significant as Flygon is not really safe to switch even on a fire move. Entei also has access to Extreme Speed. -Entei has a great bulk. This makes it very difficult to revengekill effectively. Very few Pokemons can outspeed Entei and threaten to OHKO it. Its typing only makes it weak to Aqua Jet as a priority move. -Entei's main weakness surely is its rock weakness. It limits the amount of opportunities Entei can get in a game. Also, its coverage is quite limited (no good ground/fighting move). It arguably lacks some fire power as most water types could stop it. -Entei can be a great sun abuser. Its fire power is huge with sun boosted attacks; a Choice Banded Entei in sun could arguably run both Sacred Fire and Flare Blitz to secure key 2HKOs on water types Pokemons like Gastrodon or Jellicent (check the calcs below). As of now (March 16th 2024) Entei has a 20.09% usage (5th most used Pokemon) for a 56.40% winrate. Calcs : Choice Band (with Adamant nature since it's the most used. Jolly is fine too.) : Vs Offensive Pokemons : Spoiler Porygon-Z : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 171-202 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Flygon : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 77-91 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO Machamp : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 154-183 (80.6 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Raikou : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 162-192 (97.5 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO Krookodile : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 154-183 (90.5 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO Nidoking : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 160-189 (102.5 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO Crawdaunt : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 73-87 (45.9 - 54.7%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO Sigilyph : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 154-183 (104.7 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Cloyster : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 76-91 (60.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Feraligatr : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 64-76 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 69-82 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Poliwrath : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 67-79 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Arcanine : -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 51-61 (30.7 - 36.7%) -- 70.5% chance to 3HKO -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 138-164 (83.1 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Rhyperior : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 51-61 (24.5 - 29.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO Medicham : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 162-192 (120 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Vs Defensive Pokemons : Spoiler Poliwrath : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 48-57 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath in Sun: 86-102 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Gastrodon : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 59-69 (27 - 31.6%) -- 42.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon in Sun: 105-124 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Crobat : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 154-183 (80.2 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery Gigalith : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gigalith: 51-61 (26.5 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO Hippowdon : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 84-99 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 100-118 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Dusclops : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 52-63 (35.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops in Sun: 79-94 (53.7 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Empoleon : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 144-169 (75.7 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Rotom-H : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 45-53 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 98.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 120-142 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Snorlax : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 164 HP / 52 Def Thick Fat Snorlax: 84-100 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO Gligar : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 60-72 (34.8 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Jellicent : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 57-68 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- 86.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 124-146 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent in Sun: 103-122 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Moltres : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 50-59 (25.5 - 30.1%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 268-316 (136.7 - 161.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Tentacruel : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 90-107 (48.1 - 57.2%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery Swampert : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 50-59 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery Quagsire : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 51-61 (25.2 - 30.1%) -- 1.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire in Sun: 93-110 (46 - 54.4%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Nidoqueen : 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 102-121 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO From opposing Pokemons : Spoiler Krookodile : 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 182-216 (95.2 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO Raikou : 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 90-106 (47.1 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO 252 SpA Raikou Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 106-126 (55.4 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Raikou Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Gear Entei: 72-86 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Flygon : 252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 164-194 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO 4 Atk Life Orb Flygon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 172-203 (90 - 106.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO Durant : 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 169-200 (88.4 - 104.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO Porygon-Z : 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 118-140 (61.7 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Gear Entei: 80-96 (41.8 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO Feraligatr : 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 96-117 (50.2 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Nidoking : 252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 210-248 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Gear Entei: 140-168 (73.2 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Donphan : 252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 204-242 (106.8 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO Machamp : 252+ Atk Guts Machamp Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 121-144 (63.3 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 193-228 (101 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Guts Machamp Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 66-78 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Venusaur : 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 117-138 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Gear Entei: 153-183 (80.1 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Empoleon : 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 126-150 (65.9 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Gear Entei: 84-102 (43.9 - 53.4%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO Ninjask : 252+ Atk Flying Gem Ninjask Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 138-163 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Jolteon : 252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 130-154 (68 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Crawdaunt : 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 164-196 (85.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO Sigilyph : 252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 109-129 (57 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Medicham : 252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 159-187 (83.2 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Ambipom : 252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 58-70 (30.3 - 36.6%) -- 63.7% chance to 3HKO 252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 118-139 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Sets on Entei : Entei's overall strong stats could allow it to use various sets effectively. I am sure there are great mixed sets with hpgrass/extrasensory or Calm Mind but I will only list the ones we mainly see from the playerbase : Adamant/Jolly - Choice Band - Sacred Fire; Extreme Speed; Stone Edge; Crunch/Flare Blitz (in sun) Adamant/Jolly - Assault Vest - Sacred Fire; Extreme Speed; Stone Edge; Crunch Notable checks/counters : Many of them are unreliable/don't work if sun is active. However using sun is a considerable amount of support. -Relaxed Poliwrath completely shuts down CB Entei. Offensive Poliwrath could check it. -Gastrodon -Vaporeon -Gigalith (dislikes the burn very much but removes potential sun when coming on the field) -Jellicent (weak to crunch) -Snorlax with Thick Fat (dislikes the burn very much) -Hippowdon (similar to Gigalith but less effective as Flare Blitz could 2HKO, and Sacred Fire hits really hard) -Gligar (dislikes the burn very much and would need to toxic+spam roost to stall out CB Entei) -Dusclops (Pressure is great against Sacred Fire as it only has 8 PPs) -RotomHeat (dislikes stealth rocks, needs to be bold, and weak to Stone Edge) -Quagsire (pretty much only used in stall) -Slowbro (weak to crunch) Note that UU should have some changes next month. We can't know yet for sure but we could assume Empoleon would rise to OU and Salamence, Bronzong and Mandibuzz would go down to UU. Feel free to discuss. RysPicz, YourAngst, Sargeste and 6 others 8 1 Link to comment
VadimEmpoleon Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) Entei should remain in UU. There is a considerable number of mons that can stop it, I will first talk about Entei in no sun teams: The best answers I believe are: Poliwrath which doesn't fear getting burned because it runs Rest and Scald most of the time. Gastrodon doesn't fear burn either because it runs Special attacks most of the time. Jellicent which also doesn't fear burn but can ge 2HKO'ed by Crunch, this implies the Entei's user needs to predict and it can even not work if Cursed Body activates. Snorlax, which unlike stated above, doesn't fear the burn most of the time because it runs Rest, it can also use Sleep Talk. On 3/17/2024 at 1:33 PM, Azphiel said: Snorlax with Thick Fat (dislikes the burn very much) Salamence, assuming it drops down, can also stop Entei unless it uses Stone Edge which involves prediction and no miss from Stone Edge, it is also important to note that Stone Edge has a high critic % and that Salamence is weak to Stealth Rock. Spoiler -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 36-42 (17.8 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence on a critical hit: 214-254 (105.9 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO Milotic, with Empoleon gone and 2 additional defog users in the tier (Salamence and Mandibuzz) Milotic can be a decent mon in UU again, it can take advantage of its Competitive ability to punish defog users and it can also stop Entei, Salamence also has Intimidate which would activate Competitive. Not only that but it can also run Marvel Scale to get an extra Defense against Entei if getting burned by Sacred Fire. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 54-63 (26.7 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 36-42 (17.8 - 20.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO after burn damage Slowbro, it doesn't fear getting burned but can get 2HKO'ed by Crunch. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 94-112 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO Politoed but it's only used in rain teams. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed in Rain: 27-33 (13.7 - 16.7%) -- possible 6HKO Other answers that are not as good as the stated above are: Arcanine, its defensive variant is not a very good mon for current UU and it is also weak to Stealth Rock and to Stone Edge. Spoiler -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 36-42 (18.2 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 96-114 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO Gligar which dislikes the burn and doesn't have passive recovery from Leftovers making it weak to Stealth Rock turning it into a non reliable answer for long games. Moltres which is weak to Rock type and it probably not good enough to be UU (it is most likely dropping by usage). Vaporeon, I find its Bold variant not worth using in current UU but with the next changes in April it can become more viable. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 63-75 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery Tentacruel, I don't think it is viable with its Bold variant. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tentacruel: 66-78 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- 88.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Swampert, it can stop it effectively running Scald and/or Rest but I don't think it's defensive variant is good enough in current UU. Dusclops which takes a lot of damage but has enough resistance to survive 2 Sacred Fire, it is also very good when it comes to stalling the move, it suffers against Crunch tho. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 56-68 (38 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Hippowdon which dislikes the burn. Mantine which despite being NU I consider a decent mon for UU but it dies to Stone Edge. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 57-68 (29.6 - 35.4%) -- 23.7% chance to 3HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 154-182 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Rotom Heat can resist Sacred Fire but can't resist Stone Edge. Quagsire can stop it but it's probably not that good in UU and it doesn't like the burn because most of the times it runs EQ and Scald. Druddigon which despite resisting the attacks doesn't run a recovery move and most of the time won't have passive recovery from Leftovers because of using Rocky Helmet. Gigalith which dislikes the burn but some of them run Rest so it can be a good answer. I believe this is more than enough mons to deal with a non sun boosted Entei in a defensive way, there are mons in UU which don't have even half of answers to them that Entei has. Regarding the defensive mons that can stop Entei in Sun, they are of course more limited but this is normal because the point of setting up a weather is to take advantage of it: Hippowdon which still dislikes the burn but can effectively remove the Sun while surviving against Entei in most cases. Gigalith similar case to Hippowdon. Politoed which is only used in rain. Milotic, assuming it was burned previously. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic in Sun: 64-76 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 89.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic in Sun: 64-76 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 89.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage Salamence can survive Entei's fire attacks. Spoiler -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence in Sun: 54-63 (26.7 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence in Sun: 64-76 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 89.7% chance to 3HKO Slowbro can also survive the fire attacks. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sun: 65-77 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sun: 78-93 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Poliwrath, Gastrodon, Jellicent, Quagsire have a chance of surviving against 2 Flare Blitz in sun. Swampert can stop it in sun but it's very close and it lacks recovery move apart from Rest. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert in Sun: 75-88 (36.2 - 42.5%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert in Sun: 89-105 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Druddigon can survive Flare Blitz and cause a lot of damage to Entei because of recoil, Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin, it still fears a burn from Sacred Fire tho. Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon in Sun: 75-88 (40.7 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon in Sun: 89-105 (48.3 - 57%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO This said, even if some mons dislike getting burned Heal Bell exists and good mons like Umbreon or Vaporeon have it in UU. Also Entei will lose health if it uses Flare Blitz making it easier to revenge kill it. Now let's look at the offensive mons that can revenge kill it: Crawdaunt with Aqua Jet if Entei lost some health previously. Any rain abuser in rain teams. Ambipom. Feraligatr but it doesn't like the burn. Spoiler 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 229-273 (119.8 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force burned Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 114-136 (59.6 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Scarf Krookodile. Flygon with its CB, Scarf and mixed LO variants. Spoiler 252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 246-290 (128.7 - 151.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 SpA Life Orb Flygon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 133-157 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 4 Atk Life Orb Flygon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 172-203 (90 - 106.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO 252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 180-212 (94.2 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO Rhyperior but it dislikes the burn. Salamence with Choice Specs. Spoiler 252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 187-222 (97.9 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO Raikou with Scald+Choice Specs can deal a good amount of damage. Spoiler 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 158-188 (82.7 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Durant as long as it doesn't miss Rock Slide/Stone Edge. Krookodile with Pursuit can punish it if it uses Stone Edge or Crunch. Spiritomb with Pursuit can punish it if it uses Extreme Speed. Donphan it it doesn't get burned can OHKO it. Rotom Heat can resist it and deal some damage with Discharge/Thunderbolt/Volt Switch. Blastoise can set up and kill Entei. Many other faster mons like Crobat, Jolteon, Sucker Punch Bisharp, Choice Scarf Heracross, Choice Scarf Medicham, etc. can deal a good amount of damage and finish it it is is not at 100%, it is weak to Stealth Rock so making it lose some amount of health is not hard to achieve. When it comes to offensive teams they can also effectively deal with Entei with the use of Reflect and Entei can't do much against rain teams. It is important to note that Entei can finish weakened mons with Extreme Speed but its damage is not so high to consider it a big threat. Sacred Fire is also easy to stall from my point of view. UU's metagame would have even more tools to deal with Entei if unhealthy mons like Crawdaunt that crippled UU for so long were where they belong which is OU, UU's metagame evolved into a metagame with mons that can deal with Crawdaunt almost always present, Poliwrath is a good example of this, good mons like Rotom Heat decreased in usage while mons like Rotom Mow increased in usage. Ground type mons would be more viable without Crawdaunt, there would be less fear of using mons like Krookodile and even some mons like Aerodactyl which would be decent in current UU's metagame with Bronzong not present. Right now Crawdaunt doesn't even have a high usage because of everyone covering it. This metagame is defined by a fear to a mon that doesn't even have a high usage. Entei is not the problem, Crawdaunt is and always was a problem. Edited March 18 by VadimEmpoleon Slowbro and Swampert calcs were wrong in Sun DrakeHope, gbwead, SweeTforU and 3 others 4 2 Link to comment
FlacuSkye Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 6 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said: Entei should remain in UU. There is a considerable number of mons that can stop it, I will first talk about Entei in no sun teams: The best answers I believe are: Poliwrath which doesn't fear getting burned because it runs Rest and Scald most of the time. Gastrodon doesn't fear burn either because it runs Special attacks most of the time. Jellicent which also doesn't fear burn but can ge 2HKO'ed by Crunch, this implies the Entei's user needs to predict and it can even not work if Cursed Body activates. Snorlax, which unlike stated above, doesn't fear the burn most of the time because it runs Rest, it can also use Sleep Talk. Salamence, assuming it drops down, can also stop Entei unless it uses Stone Edge which involves prediction and no miss from Stone Edge, it is also important to note that Stone Edge has a high critic % and that Salamence is weak to Stealth Rock. Reveal hidden contents -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 36-42 (17.8 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence on a critical hit: 214-254 (105.9 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (etc etc i won't quote the whole post because it's a lot) I don't know how correct it is to talk about Entei considering next month's tier changes and we don't exactly know how the metagame will adapt. A lot of the answers still get 2hko'd by the correct move (and Entei does not have 4mss, he can use them all) and even then a burn is very important as it negates Leftovers recovery. What's really the point of bringing up the Pokemon that can revenge kill it? It would mean that Entei already killed something. Shaymin can get revenge killed by a lot of stuff but it still got banned. And it's funny how many of those Pokemon can't always revenge kill it, to show how absurd Entei's uninvested bulk is. It's the first time i see Reflect being used as an argument, i think it's pretty silly. "It is important to note that Entei can finish weakened mons with Extreme Speed but its damage is not so high to consider it a big threat." It literally is. Entei can EASILY win a lot of late games against offense because it manages to do at least 50% to basically everything. And this very much applies to both sun/rain teams; most of the time, those teams don't bring a normal resist which means you can just save Entei for later to win by spamming Extreme Speed. And what is that last part??? I know Crawdaunt is very very very strong, but not as meta centralising as you make it look. Poliwrath, of course, gained a lot of usage because of it but it also checks/counters a looooot of Pokemon (even Entei). How can you know it is responsible of the change in usage of both Rotom-Mow/Heat? Don't forget Gastrodon dropped to UU. Can you list what tools UU would get say, Crawdaunt gets banned? VadimEmpoleon, bobliu, Poufilou and 2 others 2 2 1 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 43 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said: And what is that last part??? I know Crawdaunt is very very very strong, but not as meta centralising as you make it look. Poliwrath, of course, gained a lot of usage because of it but it also checks/counters a looooot of Pokemon (even Entei). Poli was NU/Untiered back on July 2021 and it rised later because of rise of 3 mons he luckily happens to check. Feraligatr, Crawdaunt and Entei. Guess what? All 3 were considered banworthy, but then came the next on the list and overtaked it. Link to comment
VadimEmpoleon Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 11 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said: I don't know how correct it is to talk about Entei considering next month's tier changes and we don't exactly know how the metagame will adapt. A lot of the answers still get 2hko'd by the correct move (and Entei does not have 4mss, he can use them all) and even then a burn is very important as it negates Leftovers recovery. The things said considering changes that will most likely happen are important because those changes would change the metagame and some of them might happen soon. 13 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said: What's really the point of bringing up the Pokemon that can revenge kill it? It would mean that Entei already killed something. Because if it kills something you would want to revenge kill it. Every mon gets to kill sometimes, that is literally how matches end, mon kills another mon. 16 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said: It's the first time i see Reflect being used as an argument, i think it's pretty silly. It is something used in some offensive teams and there is no harm in mentioning it, it is not like I said Entei is fine because Reflect exists. 18 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said: "It is important to note that Entei can finish weakened mons with Extreme Speed but its damage is not so high to consider it a big threat." It literally is. Entei can EASILY win a lot of late games against offense because it manages to do at least 50% to basically everything. And this very much applies to both sun/rain teams; most of the time, those teams don't bring a normal resist which means you can just save Entei for later to win by spamming Extreme Speed. I disagree, I don't consider Extreme Speed's damage enough to be considered too high, I see you do, guess we just can't agree on this. To be more accurate I will use an example: 252 Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 84-99 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I don't consider this too much, it is a good damage but that's it in my opinion. 20 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said: And what is that last part??? I know Crawdaunt is very very very strong, but not as meta centralising as you make it look. Poliwrath, of course, gained a lot of usage because of it but it also checks/counters a looooot of Pokemon (even Entei). How can you know it is responsible of the change in usage of both Rotom-Mow/Heat? Don't forget Gastrodon dropped to UU. Can you list what tools UU would get say, Crawdaunt gets banned? Back in the day when Crawdaunt appeared in UU Poliwrath gained a lot of usage and ended in UU too, right now its usage is lower but mons like Rotom Mow have a higher usage so there is always something that can defeat Crawdaunt with a high usage. If Crawdaunt was banned Gigalith, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Rhyperior, Rotom Heat would be more viable than now. Mismagius, which can force an Entei locked in Extreme Speed to switch out, would also be better than now because it wouldn't have to worry about losing 80% Health from an Aqua Jet. Probably more offensive mons that take a lot of Damage from Aqua Jet would be seen more in UU if Crawdaunt was gone. It is hard to predict what would be good if Bronzong, Mandibuzz and Salamence drop, and we are not even sure if they will drop, they likely will but it may change still. Anyway, compared to any other arguments the Crawdaunt's one is the least important and since I don't want to turn this Entei discussion into Crawdaunt discussion I'd rather not talk about Crawdaunt again. Link to comment
JurassicMick Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 11 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: I don't consider this too much, it is a good damage but that's it in That means just keeping hazards up (spikes + rocks) with some previous damage (it doesn't even needs to be that much) you can kill PZ without any risk. And this applies with a way more mons that you thought. I do agree it that feels like a bit too early to talk about this since we are about to get some big changes within the tier in a couple weeks or so and we don't know how the meta will adapt to those changes Link to comment
FlacuSkye Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 6 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: Because if it kills something you would want to revenge kill it. Every mon gets to kill sometimes, that is literally how matches end, mon kills another mon. The thing is, everything can be revenge killed, specially by Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf, i just don't see the point in mentioning what can RK Entei. 7 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: I disagree, I don't consider Extreme Speed's damage enough to be considered too high, I see you do, guess we just can't agree on this. To be more accurate I will use an example: 252 Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 84-99 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I don't consider this too much, it is a good damage but that's it in my opinion. Thanks for proving my point by providing a calc?, a normal type priority move with no stab gets a 2HKO on a lot of offensive Pokemon. Also take in account Entei's bulk, it may live an attack and ESpeed twice. 11 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: If Crawdaunt was banned Gigalith, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Rhyperior, Rotom Heat would be more viable than now. Mismagius, which can force an Entei locked in Extreme Speed to switch out, would also be better than now because it wouldn't have to worry about losing 80% Health from an Aqua Jet. Probably more offensive mons that take a lot of Damage from Aqua Jet would be seen more in UU if Crawdaunt was gone. It is hard to predict what would be good if Bronzong, Mandibuzz and Salamence drop, and we are not even sure if they will drop, they likely will but it may change still. Anyway, compared to any other arguments the Crawdaunt's one is the least important and since I don't want to turn this Entei discussion into Crawdaunt discussion I'd rather not talk about Crawdaunt again. Oh that is nasty. All those Pokemon are easily usable with a lot of things that can check Crawdaunt. (Rotom-Mow, Empoleon, Poliwrath, Toxicroak, Jellicent. The latter can run Colbur Berry). When you build your Pokemon cover each other weaknesses. I don't see how Crawdaunt gone can make those offensive Pokemon rise, you don't scrap the idea of Aerodactyl in UU because "ah it dies to aqua jet". If you don't want this to turn into a Crawdaunt discussion then don't bring it as an argument to not consider Entei as a problem. Link to comment
VadimEmpoleon Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 9 minutes ago, JurassicMick said: That means just keeping hazards up (spikes + rocks) with some previous damage (it doesn't even needs to be that much) you can kill PZ without any risk. And this applies with a way more mons that you thought. I do agree it that feels like a bit too early to talk about this since we are about to get some big changes within the tier in a couple weeks or so and we don't know how the meta will adapt to those changes Yep but it's not that easy to have all those hazards and mons like Spiritomb, Durant, Bisharp, Krookodile, etc. can resist Extreme Speed decently. Crawdaunt deals even more damage and the mons that resist it are not many apart from Poliwrath, Toxicroak and Rotom Mow. Link to comment
TohnR Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 Quality suspect post by Azphiel. My respects. Azphiel 1 Link to comment
FlacuSkye Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 2 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: Crawdaunt deals even more damage and the mons that resist it are not many apart from Poliwrath, Toxicroak and Rotom Mow. 32 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: I'd rather not talk about Crawdaunt again VadimEmpoleon 1 Link to comment
VadimEmpoleon Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 Just now, FlacuSkye said: It was a comparation of another mon in UU with Entei that has nothing to do with Crawdaunt being or not being healthy for this metagame. Or I have to just not talk about this mon at all? Also I don't see the need in quoting me for this. Link to comment
VadimEmpoleon Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 9 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said: The thing is, everything can be revenge killed, specially by Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf, i just don't see the point in mentioning what can RK Entei. A mon having more or less mons that can revenge kill is important for a discussion. Link to comment
FlacuSkye Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 4 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: A mon having more or less mons that can revenge kill is important for a discussion. A Pokemon locked into a move. Who could've guessed you have various ways of revenge killing it. Link to comment
gbwead Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 As spammable as Scared Fire might be, there are still too many Fire Resistant mons available in UU for Entei to be able to lock itself into Sacred Fire freely. There is a decent degree of prediction necessary when playing CB Entei. Locked mons become broken when they do not need to predict like we saw with Choice Spec Hydreigon Draco Meteor in OU that was able to break through steel types despite locking itself into Draco Meteor. Entei doesn't break through most water types with Sacred Fire alone. @Azphiel Entei is so pathetic that it can't even break through Corsola. VadimEmpoleon and Azphiel 1 1 Link to comment
DrakeHope Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 I will repost what i said before on the UU discussion thread. Entei movepool even if limited is actually almost perfect for the actual UU metagame sacred fire destroy everything and crunch ( for Jelli ) + stone edge ( for fire type ) make his check so limited actually only gastrodon full def and snorlax thick fat at least full HP can perfectly counter Entei, and dusclops to some extent ( one def drop from crunch is enough to make it a 2HKO on dusclops: 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Crunch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 84-100 (57.1 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ), i consider them perfect counter bcs they don't care about the burn and don't get 2HKO by sfire or the coverage move and have reliable way to heal themselve. All the other check/"counter" are at least annoyed by burn: Gigalith, hippodown, Gligar, Donphan, physical swampert, flygon physical or mixed and other flacu already listed, also 1 out of 5 (20%) Entei are played with a +Speed nature meaning it can be a speed tie against flygon. But even if they are annoyed by burn they still can annoy Entei with stab for Gigalith Hippo Gligar Donphan Swampert and Flygon and some of them can use a heal move. For me the biggest issue is that it's so hard to rk entei, bcs of his great bulk priority don't do much even if the mon is weak to sr ( 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 164-196 (86.3 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO the strongest prio against him isnt a OHKO if full life ) scarf or the few faster mon usually lack the power to rk him Even if low he can take a EQ Krook scarf if full life: 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 182-216 (95.7 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO but that still good to rk Pz scarf adaptability: 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 118-140 (62.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( don't kill even after entei took SR ) Pz scarf Download: +1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 132-156 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( 50% chance to kill if entei took sr ) Raikou specs: 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 158-186 (83.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( 16% usage of the item) Raikou not specs: 252 SpA Raikou Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 106-126 (55.7 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( expert belt is 31% chance to OHKO if entei took sr ) Heracross scarf ( 26% item usage) : 252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 128-152 (67.3 - 80%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Fera: 252 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 88-109 (46.3 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock All of them are not a 100% chance to OHKO on a full life entei an not a 100% OHKO after entei take SR, also entei have Espeed and can kill them if they are low hp, for me having such an issue in revenge killing such a devastating mon offensively is not healthy. 34 minutes ago, gbwead said: As spammable as Scared Fire might be, there are still too many Fire Resistant mons available in UU for Entei to be able to lock itself into Sacred Fire freely. There is a decent degree of prediction necessary when playing CB Entei. Locked mons become broken when they do not need to predict like we saw with Choice Spec Hydreigon Draco Meteor in OU that was able to break through steel types despite locking itself into Draco Meteor. Entei doesn't break through most water types with Sacred Fire alone. @Azphiel Entei is so pathetic that it can't even break through Corsola. You do not ask Entei to break fire resistant ( unless it's a Entei sun ). Most fire resistant mons available in UU are annoyed by the burn that is likely to happen. Fire resist/mon used to check Entei annoyed by burn: Physical and mixed Flygon: 40% usage life orb, 16% usage scarf and 9% usage Ground gem which mon more than 1/2 flygon all those are annoyed by burn also jolly Entei speedtie with him Gligar: Get burn and have to go for a toxic roost strat Donphan: Played 60% of the time with an adamant nature so burn is annoying Hippodown: Nullify his leftovers and make him very passive even more than usual Tentacruel: Nullify his leftovers and he have no recovery move Gigalith: Nullify hist leftovers and he have no recovery move Feraligatr: Make him useless if he have to switch in Druddigon: Nullify his leftovers or cripple him if he's rocky helmet he still can glare and set up rocks so i guess it's not so bad Swampert: Nullify offensive set like bulk up and nullify leftovers of defensive swampert and he have no recovery move Quagsire: cripple him if he run rocky helmet and nullify his leftovers, he still can win thanks to scald and can set up hazard which is not so bad Fire resist/mon used to check Entei not annoyed by burn: Rotom-Heat full def: Can absorb sacred fire well but can't come freely bcs of stone edge also no recovery move Snorlax: Have to run rest which killed AV Snorlax ( 16% AV usage in 10/2023, 4% AV usage this month so far ) Dusclops: Not so free because on def drop crunch can make it a 2HKO but it's in the advantage of dusclops thanks to pressure i believe Gastrodon: Still huge to nullify his leftovers but usually gastrodon just don't care about anything entei can do and have a recovery move Ninetales: Set up sun for entei but it's still a fire resist so i had to list it here he's prob the worst fire resist to play against entei Poliwrath: just have to run rest which is common on the defensive poliwrath great mon against entei Jellicent: Can't come freely because of crunch but can curse body and still absorb very well sfire Seismitoad: Played most of the time offesive ( 73% usage of life orb ) can get 2HKO, but if he's played defensive he tank realy well sacred fire and don't realy care about burn with earth power and scald, but he have no recovery move so the burn nullify his leftovers which is huge Arcanine: Can't come on a stone edge even after intimidate but can absorb any fire attack very well also have recovery move and can't get burn Other mon are to low in usage right now to be discussed as check/counter of entei in my opinion ( RIP vapo ) In my opinion he's a little too centralazing for the tier, dusclops was at 7% usage before entei and now at 11% ( for a pokemon that get destroyed by Crawdaunt which imo show how much people prepare way more against Entei than Crawdaunt who was deemed banworthy by a lot of people ) I also believe that's Entei is the main reason gastrodon is used so much like don't get me wrong gastrodon is a great mon by himself, great typing sr, immu water win against a lot of UU top tiers. Even if it's a little too centralazing like i said before i don't think it's something UU playerbase can't handle for now, tiers shift gonna happen and maybe mandibuzz/salamence will help against Entei or the rise of Empo in OU will make milotic or vapo played ( 2 possible defog go from OU to UU and the best defog counter go OU so milotic competitive as a shot also Marvel scale make him a great counter of sfire as he benefits from the burn ) To resume my opinion: Even if great movepool for actual UU metagame and Sfire is a broken and his counter are realy limited i don't think he's banworthy right now because of tiers shift and that we didnt explore every way to check/counter Entei. I think that's he's banworthy because of how hard it is to rk him compared to other similar strong offensive mon like p-z or crawdaunt one have no bulk and the other have no speed 2 thing that entei have, and for a pokemon that is so hard to counter/check having such few way of rk is definitly not healthy. We'll see after tiers shift LeJovi and VadimEmpoleon 1 1 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 2 hours ago, gbwead said: As spammable as Scared Fire might be, there are still too many Fire Resistant mons available in UU for Entei to be able to lock itself into Sacred Fire freely. There is a decent degree of prediction necessary when playing CB Entei. Locked mons become broken when they do not need to predict like we saw with Choice Spec Hydreigon Draco Meteor in OU that was able to break through steel types despite locking itself into Draco Meteor. Entei doesn't break through most water types with Sacred Fire alone. @Azphiel Entei is so pathetic that it can't even break through Corsola. problem is more the Burn. Because even if you had a Rock-type that resist the Sacred Fire, Rhyperior, you prob think: "Ain't risking a burn." and switch out. Same thing as Scald in other mons, even you having the type advantage the secondary effect makes you think if it's worthy to stay or not in the field. And just fire types won't be annoyed by a burn and can stay. Edited March 18 by caioxlive13 Link to comment
Bertolfoso Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 I mostly agree with what has been said, Entei is too fast for how bulky and strong it is. I also think that we should not simply gloss over its synergy in sun, which makes it ridiculous (Water moves weakened, boosted fire moves to the point of breaking many resists, opens options for 4th slot for solarbeam on Charcoal sets). Also i think Vintei would be very strong too but there is no point in using it when regular entei is that strong Onraider, Sawwario, Imperial and 5 others 7 1 Link to comment
DrakeHope Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 6 hours ago, Bertolfoso said: @caioxlive13 dont want to be toxic, but you might want to sit this one out. As far as I know you dont play nor like UU. Ofc u can have your opinion but honestly you should recognize that they all come from theory. I don't even know if you've spectated the tier ___________________________________________________________________________ I mostly agree with what has been said, Entei is too fast for how bulky and strong it is. I also think that we should not simply gloss over its synergy in sun, which makes it ridiculous (Water moves weakened, boosted fire moves to the point of breaking many resists, opens options for 4th slot for solarbeam on Charcoal sets). Also i think Vintei would be very strong too but there is no point in using it when regular entei is that strong I don't think in my opinion that it's realy relevant to speak about entei in sun, sun is an archetype that you lose or win depending on MU only and not if the oppo play entei in it or not, but its a fact that he make sun stronger. He's also great against it as the usual sun played in the actual meta litteraly have no switch in to entei in sun. Which is why i believe we should focus on entei in general and not drift on entei in sun even if i fully understand why the subject was brought. Link to comment
SweeTforU Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 On 3/17/2024 at 5:39 PM, VadimEmpoleon said: Slowbro can also survive the fire attacks. Hide contents -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sun: 44-52 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 1.7% chance to 4HKO -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sun: 53-63 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO Poliwrath, Gastrodon, Jellicent, Quagsire have a chance of surviving against 2 Flare Blitz in sun. Swampert can stop it in sun. Hide contents -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert in Sun: 50-59 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert in Sun: 59-70 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery wrong calcs here, you accidently calced -1 Sawwario and VadimEmpoleon 1 1 Link to comment
VadimEmpoleon Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 47 minutes ago, SweeTforU said: wrong calcs here, you accidently calced -1 Thank you, will fix it, forgot to remove the -1 after doing the Salamence calc Link to comment
Bertolfoso Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 23 hours ago, DrakeHope said: I don't think in my opinion that it's realy relevant to speak about entei in sun, sun is an archetype that you lose or win depending on MU only and not if the oppo play entei in it or not, but its a fact that he make sun stronger. He's also great against it as the usual sun played in the actual meta litteraly have no switch in to entei in sun. Which is why i believe we should focus on entei in general and not drift on entei in sun even if i fully understand why the subject was brought. 33% of Entei are played with Ninetales support, it's in bad faith to discuss it outside of sun. You can't really ignore it unless there is a really good reason (and i doubt there is) Sargeste, pachima and TohnR 2 1 Link to comment
TohnR Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) 11 hours ago, Bertolfoso said: 33% of Entei are played with Ninetales support, it's in bad faith to discuss it outside of sun The thing is calc'ing sunbreakers in sun is kind of meaningless because there has been many that were unwallable before (i.e. Darmanitan in sun in OU). Mostly the only safe way of handling it is sending Sand setters which also happen to handle Entei, or send a faster mon capable of taking 1 hit and revenge killing (Flygon) which is risky unless you know it is band, because Xspeed does too much. Could also argue that Sun has overall a bad winrate (Ninetales has 47%), which means Entei having a winrate of 56% could imply that Entei out of sun has a much higher winrate than we'd think ? Edited March 20 by TohnR VadimEmpoleon 1 Link to comment
Bertolfoso Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 2 hours ago, TohnR said: The thing is calc'ing sunbreakers in sun is kind of meaningless because there has been many that were unwallable before (i.e. Darmanitan in sun in OU). Mostly the only safe way of handling it is sending Sand setters which also happen to handle Entei, or send a faster mon capable of taking 1 hit and revenge killing (Flygon) which is risky unless you know it is band, because Xspeed does too much. Could also argue that Sun has overall a bad winrate (Ninetales has 47%), which means Entei having a winrate of 56% could imply that Entei out of sun has a much higher winrate than we'd think ? Entei and Darmanitan live in different contexts. Darmanitan's 95 makes it slower than most non defensive pokemon in OU, it suffers from the recoil it has to receive with its main move and its bulk is lackluster, while Entei's 100 makes it one of the fastest mons in UU, coupled with excellent bulk for the combination of speed and power. I would argue that their counterplay is also different, as Darma's is more offensive (it's stronger but slower and more susceptible to priority) and Entei's is defensive. If you simply wanted raw damage, Arcanine can get very very similar numbers to Entei, but it's clear that Arcanine doesn't need a discussion. I'm not sure about the statistics as those are not sufficient, but we can't get more detailed information. Entei does not need sun to be stupid, but sun makes it even dumber. Also just saying, Flygon needs chip to ohko entei Poufilou 1 Link to comment
TohnR Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 3 hours ago, Bertolfoso said: Entei and Darmanitan live in different contexts. Darmanitan's 95 makes it slower than most non defensive pokemon in OU, it suffers from the recoil it has to receive with its main move and its bulk is lackluster, while Entei's 100 makes it one of the fastest mons in UU This joins my point that the damage calculations on walls from sunbreakers in sun are irrelevant. The point is can you revenge kill it or waste sun turns, not can you tank it because you can't SnowOT and Axelgor 1 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 Bulk is great. Hax is bleh. Do we need to move Entei to BL? Link to comment
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