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Hey what's up guys,

\o/

I agree with basically all of the criticism in this thread, and I already ditched the TC a couple months ago because I don't foresee the TC getting fixed anytime soon (or ever). However, I think a good amount of solutions in this thread are missing the mark to some extent, which is reasonable, since I don't think people realize how deeply fucked the TC currently is. So, let me go into it: First of all, I'm going to go ahead and point out the system is structured in such a way that makes it heavily resistant to change. To be frank, tiering is extra work, and the staff seem significantly more interested in having the formats be literally playable with all pokemon at least theoretically usable than actually making competitive, you know, good. Notice the operative word here is "staff"; for a while, the TC has been basically hammered into complete non-choices, as tiering decisions have been basically made by higher staff. The obvious example is the individual pokemon changes, the first notable one being removing Draco Meteor from Hydreigon's movepool. You could say the TC made that decision, sure, but the answer is not really. A more accurate breakdown is we were told we 100% shouldn't let Hydreigon be banned, and they don't want to remove Draco from Hydreigon later if they add it and it ends up broken. So, we were forced to agree "okay, yeah, don't release draco on it". In a technical manner, we made the judgment call that Draco Meteor Hydreigon would be too much, but in reality, we really had no choice in the matter. The limitations we were handed down basically made it the only possible option, and negotiating other solutions (just ban hydreigon/add it and remove it later if it's a problem) were basically no sold as possible options. This trend of "Yeah, you guys decide, but there is literally only 1 conceivable choice" has resulted in basically every single OU related decision since Unova, and quite frankly, kills any drive to actually care about anything tiering related. If there's only 1 option that's even being considered, why even have a TC to make that decision? This is obviously exacerbated by the fact that banning is something to be avoided whenever possible, and bans are typical placed with the idea that at some point an update/nerf will be released to undo the ban at some point. Of course, this only really addresses the issues plaguing OU tiering, not the rest of the tiers. To go into that, we have to go over the fact the TC is basically unchanged in policies and structure despite being like, half a decade old. The biggest issue is the massive emphasis on forum engagement and participation; discussions take place on the forums, when adding TC members, some level of involvement on the forums is preferred/expected, etc. This might have been fine before, but quite frankly, the forums here are extremely dead. Forums (no, reddit doesn't count) just aren't really used anymore, and making them so integral to the tiering process is a ridiculous oversight. The fact you basically can't get involved in tiering in any meaningful way other than messaging TC members without getting on the forums is absolutely ridiculous in current year. TC and tiering communication in general is awful, and it's caused partially by apathy on the TC's side (massive inactivity btw, but this is an old horse), but also by the fact policies basically push communication to threads in a forum people who play the game don't even use. It's pretty telling that a lot of the people I'm seeing in this thread are people who were using the forums years ago, when it was actually, uh, useful. Even ignoring that, there is basically no meaningful structure to the tiering process itself. The definitions of banworthy are literally irrelevant, since the rules for banning have heavily changed since staff became more involved, and the process of requiring a forum thread for suspects and such is literally laughably pointless. At present, it's just whoever actually cares to say or do anything throwing out a vote on things people are mildly vocal about. The literal 2.13 active TC members scream about something that they want banned ASAP, and bring it up every month until something changes. That's about it. It's not like there's much structure on what to do, and most people just aren't involved enough to generate structure. There's not really any guidelines on what's considered acceptable to ban other than "try not to touch OU", so the discussions quickly turn circular with only 2 or 3 people actively participating to any extent, and none of them really agreeing on the line for banworthy, even if half the time they agree something might be strong. Ultimately, all of these things are only issues as long as they persist. If they can be fixed, there isn't a problem, but as I said originally, the system is heavily resistant to change. Removing old, irrelevant TC members is more work for staff (read: Munya), and quite frankly, from their perspective, isn't even necessary if the TC is still working "fine" (which it isn't). To be fair, I'm sympathetic to Munya & staff in general on this point, since the way the system is structured and the fact staff hide in a brimstone bunker as far away from the playerbase as possible makes picking out new TC members a huge hassle. Not only that, but in all the time TC has been around, it's absolutely been common that someone new is added to the TC to replace an inactive/quit/removed member, and then proceeds to just not participate at all. At a certain point, cycling through TC members can feel pointless, when you end up replacing an inactive player with an active player who doesn't participate, and then turns inactive. However, ignoring this doesn't make it not an issue, it just guarantees it will literally never get fixed. Since TC inevitably ends up clogged with inactives who can't be bothered to do anything, and replacing them with active members is an exercise in futility, nothing meaningful gets changed since the TC itself isn't willing to instigate any change. Not to mention that actually enacting meaningful change requires active discussion and cooperation with higher staff, which effectively makes doing anything a million times more difficult and frustrating. It's not uncommon that we had to force Munya to float an idea higher up the river, just to get told a flat "no" with little else. I'm also gonna throw a disclaimer here; it's not that higher staff never engage or discuss with the TC. For example, Kyu would frequently show up whenever we had to discuss something related to an ingame change he'd have to push (ie, modifying how an ability/move works) that had relevant competitive impact. However, normally these discussions are instigated by the higher staff themselves, and things as vague and open ended as "The TC is completely broken and needs to be changed completely" isn't going to garner much traction. So, what are we left with? A system that, as is, is broken in the following ways: Communicates through an irrelevant channel (Forums) for announcements, community engagement, and identifying potential members. Ends up clogged with inactive users without any failsafes to handle them, so that even when they are replaced, the issue quickly repeats. Has rules and guidelines, but basically none of them are followed due to being some combination of outdated, wrong, or bad. Is extremely resistant to change, due to being comprised of inactive users, the difficulty of pushing forth actual change, and lack of receptiveness/attentiveness to these problems by staff. Is left with extremely little freedom in making independent decisions, due to constant (generally poorly defined & understood by the TC) restrictions imposed by higher staff. Lacks any drive, ability, or function with which to push back and address any of these issues. Ultimately, splitting up the TC into subdivisions of ideally more informed/active players won't fix anything in the long term. Even if it temporarily helps address the stagnant state of the TC, it doesn't fix any of the other fundamental problems. While something like the activity checker ThinkNice mentioned would ideally help combat the inevitable stagnation issue, in practice, I see it requiring too much staff involvement/effort, since any member purged by this system must then be replaced by someone staff deems "acceptable" and meets stringent activity requirements. There's just like 0% chance something like that would really get enforced long term, if at all; it's just too much of a hassle for them to upkeep. So, in order for a proposed TC rework to be viable imo, it would need to meet these requirements: Deal with not only the current TC stagnation of inactive users, but provide a method of cycling out inactive ones in the future. The system needs to be flexible enough to not just remove inactive users, but easily be able to replace them. The second part is both extremely important to actually making it feasible long term, and also probably the most difficult required change tbh. Actually allow/give the TC more meaningful/varied options for dealing with tiering policies independently. I legitimately don't think there's much point in having a TC if a lot of decisions end up being made half by default due to restrictions imposed on how we can/can't handle potential or currently problematic pokemon. Stuff like "Suspect Tests" as done in PokeMMO where someone throws up a thread and says "we might ban this, discuss" are so pointless that I can't even fathom why we still bother, a far cry from suspects performed by Smogon. This doesn't just have to mean being more open to just banning pokemon (since I sincerely doubt anyone high up will change their mind on this for some reason), but having actual tools to make better tiering decisions would be a significant boon. Completely rework the currently written/codified TC guidelines. And by "rework" I mean literally delete every tiering policy thread I've ever written, they're like half a decade old and nobody follows them anymore, write something else ffs. Especially regarding the vague guidelines brought down by higher staff, since even looking back I'm still not 100% sure on what we were/weren't allowed to do. SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVE COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT AND INTERACTION. This is literally the most important thing, and I wouldn't really give a shit about anything else if this could get fixed. The forums are not a good way of involving the community in tiering anymore, because the game playing community largely doesn't give a shit about this place. I am 100% convinced the best way of handling this would be having Smogon style Suspect Tests where players who meet specific requirements could vote on proposed suspects, but the last time this was suggested, I was hit with a pretty fat "no". I don't expect this to ever be compromised on, but it is such a fucking good idea holy shit just do it already ffs. If staff is still insistent on being against this, then come up with something else, but the current system of sitting in a shitty chat on the PokeMMO discord and memeing once a month before writing up garbage and posting it in a thread nobody cares about is terrible for getting people to actually care about tiering. Some of these have some proposed solutions already in the thread (and in the bullet points themselves), but not all solutions are perfect. Either way, these are all major, fundamental flaws with the TC that need to be addressed to have any hope of it not being completely worthless garbage. I probably missed some stuff in writing out this post, but I think these four bullet points succinctly cover the current issues that need to be addressed. If you get nothing else out of this post, at least read those four bullets. Frankly, I don't have super high hopes for most of this, but I saw this thread and figured I should probably comment on the issue, since the sad state of the TC has been apparent for a while, and I don't see anyone from the TC saying or doing much about it. Also, I'm gonna throw out a disclaimer. I left the TC a few months ago, and it's entirely possible some of this has been addressed since I've been gone. I HEAVILY doubt it, especially given the existence of this thread, but it's worth mentioning before I get dogpiled for outdated information. tl;dr: haha no, read it. alternatively, read everything starting from the sentence above the last set of bullet points.

A Quick Claw user is currently #1 in Doubles ladder. I guess we can bury the myth that this item is only used by 450 ELOs. Does Quick Claw improve anything in the experience of competitive battling? No. It doesn't change how a player will play a single game of Pokemon. Quick Claw is only a last-ditch effort to save a game you know you have lost. Quick Claw may technically add a strategic element to how you team build into a long set of games, but that's not how people view the game of Pokemon. Even less in an environment where the standard in tournament play is Single Elimination. Remove this item, no one is going to miss it. Even the players who are using it know that they didn't deserve to proceed further in a tournament.

大家好，这里是 CN 公会。 公会简介 我们全称「Champion 公会」，以在游戏相关的各个领域装大逼为宗旨，努力成为游戏第一华人装逼公会。 加入我们 我会采取邀请制，加入我会，须： 无游戏违规记录 在某方面有特长，且长期活跃（>1500小时，且日常在线） 得到一位成员的邀请，得到至少三位成员的赞成，且不为会长/副会长一票否决 以「实习会员」身份加入后，经过一段时间考察，由会长确认是否转正 对于正式成员，以下情况会被强制退会，否则即便是退坑，也永久保留成员资格： 违反游戏规则而封号 违反公会内部管理制度 加入前，请仔细阅读如下可对外披露的公会制度部分： 公会成员和他们的签名 按加入公会的时间排序 Ryu 会长 1天1M，10天10M，100天100M，1年365M，10年3650M，100年36500M。 YIBU 曾梦想仗剑走天涯。 Oak 该主人很懒，没有留下任何个性签名。 Viogss [暂无] OuCat [暂无] GapBear 刷闪狂魔。 April 有钱能使我推磨。 Riesz 你必须很努力，才能做到看起来毫不费力。 Sha [暂无] Myhold 这个签名贼帅！ IronFat [暂无] Lyue 不该下凡！ Deviluke First, listen with an open heart. Second, see with unclouded eyes. Third, think with an unbiased mind. Lastly, act with respect and modesty knowing that you can still be wrong. Illya 游戏就像一场旅途，路过的风景留下的是…… Ka cuz love. TMXI 副会长 全心全意为玩家服务。 CristianoLan 在蛋闪的边缘疯狂试探。 shenhaikinglo 为玩家创造快乐。 WurenBB 凭什么别人能出闪？！ bigstew 年轻人不要害怕走错路，以免错过隐藏道具和支线剧情。 StJohnYolanda [·_·]我只是个萌新智能聊天百科脚本而已（滑稽。 Luckbabya 佛系养生。

Thank you to all players who participated to this event ! Here are the winners : 1st Place Prize YUNMAO with 20 points caught at 03:22:52 PM UTC  2nd Place Prize kindergartener with 20 points caught at 03:32:01 PM UTC 3rd Place Prize laopiaj with 21 points And a special thanks to my beautiful refs: @Deviluke, @MPDH, @Sethsen, @BrokenBulb and @Revz!

Date & Time Saturday 10th October , 6PM UTC Location Pokemon Showdown + Discord Server of Phoenix How to enter The event is only for players who are in ENIX Discord server. All matches will be played on gen 6 OU. We are following the showdown rules. Players need to share the replays in #showdown-replays in the ENIX discord. Registrations will be opened 2 hours before the event. The registrations need to be sent in discord at #pokemmo-events. To prevent toxic behaviour the players are needed to send an invite to the assigned host to let them watch the battle LIVE. Rewards For each [ENIX] team member present, the total prize pool will increase by $75k. for each friends of [ENIX] that are present, increases total prize pool by $25k. First Prize winners will take home 70% of this total. Second Prize winners will take home 20% of this total. Third Prize winners will take home 10% of this total. More Participants Means Bigger Prizes! Hosts DemonBone Khasyotic Commissar

Lëmonadës only + Lottery is Free Expiring date: Friday 9th of October 2020 Prize Custom signature (example underneath) Details After the expering date ill put all of your names in a name generator. Ill make a gif from the winning spin. Reply on this post to enter the lottery. The winner can give me the signature details like: What pokemon(s) would you like in the signature? What kind of style does the signature need to be? Do you have a colour preference for the background? How many moving elements would you like? * NOTE: if you have your own background you want to use, you can send that and i will use that image. Registered Lëmonadës hannahtaylor MoxieMozzie Poufilou Fixedgaming Powerdrib Sethsen DarkxAkira noomuch OldenMan Kuplion TheAlmightyKreed WINNER @MoxieMozzie

This dude took around 100k, but hey another turtle in my family

Bump to steal all of Bali's customers.

op beard and great service

那块盖板微微颤动了些许

希望cn越走越远

好，我鼓掌

gg dude!

vs UmbraMol in 20

THE COMEBACK IS REAL!

srif Also cute charm worked this time jaja

so, it's possible to get rid off that item from MM? it's kinda boring letting players winning only with rng items, it's kinda idiotic keep items such as quick claw and kking's rock unbanned and let horrible players winning only with those rng items, over using their skills.

Hello there, I made this service thread to find people who want their mons trained. I do them for a price cheaper than the ones other trainers usually charge. One disclaimer, however, is that I do not dedicate most of my time on this business since it's merely past time for me. So it might take me longer than the usual, and I may sometimes decline some orders. Nonetheless, feel free to order below or mail me in game. Now remember, if you want cheap service, gimme a beep :D COMPLETE EV TRAIN: 30k EV + LVL 50: 40k IGN: iMarco

Greetings to anyone who would be able to read this. I would like to build a team around Gorebyss + Shell smash for OU Competitive. So far, my team consists of: Core Sweeper: Gorebyss + Shell Smash Physical Tank: Ferrothorn + Rocky Helmet/Leftovers (Possible Leech Seed) Physical Tank/Special Sweeper: Cofagrigus + Nasty Plot U-Turner: Mienshao + Life Orb + U-Turn Utility, Revenge Killer: Honchkrow + Sucker Punch. Can anyone point out the weaknesses of my team, possible addition/removal so that I could improve the team around Gorebyss and Cofagrigus, thank you very much. Quote Edit

A Colorful Sketch! Date Thursday, 8th October 2020 Time 5PM CEST | 3PM UTC | 11AM ET | Time Zone Converter Location Artisan Cave (next to Battle Frontier waterfall), Hoenn, Channel 1 Duration 1 hour for catching another 10 minutes for players to submit entries Scoring Total Sum of IVs + Nature Bonus = Total Score Pokémon accepted as valid entries Smeargle Nature Bonus Jolly +5 Adamant +3 Rules To win 1st-3rd places that are sorted by high to low, you need to submit an entry that scores the highest To win 4th place you need to submit an entry that scores the lowest You can only submit one entry All Pokémon must be caught within the event time and at the event location All Pokémon must remain unchanged (untrained/unevolved...) Evolved or unevolved forms of the listed Pokémon will not be accepted as a valid entry You must be the OT of the Pokémon You must link your entry to any participating staff member via whisper to submit it In the event of a tie, the winner will be determined by earliest catch time Participating Staff Sethsen BrokenBulb Deviluke 1st Place Prize GIFT Smeargle Your choice of nature and 6 selectable IVs & 1,000 Reward Points  2nd Place Prize 500 Reward Points 3rd-4th Place Prize 250 Reward Points

Take this @XondeX

Your shiny chance doesn't ever change, it's always going to be 1/30k. There is no such thing as chain hunting so don't worry

Congratulations to PinkWings getting second place with 52 points! RafolsJohn for winning with 42 points!

Stronger!

Date Wednesday, 7th October Time 3PM UTC | 11AM EDT | 12PM BRT | 11PM China | Time Zone Converter Location Petalburg Woods, Hoenn, Channel 5 Duration 1 hour for catching another 10 minutes for players to submit entries Scoring Total Sum of IVs + Nature Bonus = Total Score Pokémon accepted as valid entries Shroomish Nature Bonus Modest - 5 Timid - 2 Rules To win 1st-3rd places that are sorted by low to high, you need to submit an entry that scores the lowest ! You can only submit one entry All Pokémon must be caught within the event time and at the event location All Pokémon must remain unchanged (untrained/unevolved...) Evolved or unevolved forms of the listed Pokémon will not be accepted as a valid entry You must be the OT of the Pokémon You must link your entry to any participating staff member via whisper to submit it In the event of a tie, the winner will be determined by earliest catch time Participating Staff Mikyii MPDH Deviluke 1st Place Prize GIFT Shroomish Your choice of nature and 4 moves with 6 selectable IVs & 1,000 Reward Points  2nd Place Prize 700 Reward Points 3rd Place Prize 300 Reward Points

Winners here, congrats!

I've made threads before advocating for buffed outrage, however I think they should buff it to 100 BP to start, which I believe is enough to make it viable without completely breaking the metagame. Right now threats like dragonite and haxorus are almost entirely outclassed IMO.

pro evier :p great job

Yes i know but i mean, come on, how does someone not think of priorities in that case ? I felt dumb because i always pay attention to this, and here that didn't even come to my mind. Avalanche is a move i didn't know about, seems like an upgrade of the previous ice move, i read the power was 60 and i stopped reading there ; but mainly, the fact that a Jynx is very squishy and has an ice move which makes him attack last was so illogical for me. For a tank, yes of course, but for Jynx. But thanks for the help guys ! I will pay attention to E-VE-RY-THING from now on, and laser beam has already replaced avalanche :D

来了宝贝

这就是大佬吗。i了i了

全体起立

Only cuz you, ill mail u 2 Mons later, important to no show em Ty cya xd

Finally Opening a shop here :D

Thanks to all contestants : Congratulations to all the winners ! First Place: baiTAT (166 points) 05:33:37 PM UTC Second Place: JacobsFatBottom (166 points) 05:59:40 PM UTC Third Place & Forth Place: HuHQWQ (165 points) Poufilou (16 points) And a very special thanks to my amazing refs, @Sethsen, @White, @BrokenBulb, @MPDH, and @Mikyii <3

1) Depends on the tier 2)It's better to go with budget comps (2x31 3x25+ natured or 3x31 2x25+ natured, 31s in the ev investing stats) 3)

没有。 要找回账号的相关信息，「密码」「用户名」「邮箱」三者必须至少有其中两项。

teambuilding session hype

seems like the season 1 nu tours are bugged, i finished #6 last season and i didn't get selected to enter the west tournament even though there's a priority queue... are they seriously based off of season 2's elo? @Kyu

no bro in the first one i wasnt eligble either

I'd rather also see this (and kings rock) banned again and have expressed that in the TC. But the change was made higher up. Sure, it's not broken. But it's unfun and doesn't improve the state of the competitive metagame, actually it probably has a net negative effect on it honestly. It takes away agency from the opposing player. They can not outplay/predict a quick claw / kings rock proc. Having agency as a player is what makes competitive games fun.

Yes, there is a reason for removing quick claw even if it does not allow the holder to move first - it does nothing but promote luck over skill. The entire premise behind creating a competitive environment was to foster the skillful strategies that Gamefreak offered us while at the same time not being held down by the luck-based elements that Gamefreak created as well. You sound like someone who has zero competitive experience, so let me inform you that we have clauses in PvP here. You can find a list of clauses in this thread: Some of these clauses would literally turn pokemon battles into a coinflip or just incredibly stupid battles, like if we didn't have sleep clause, evasion clause etc. In order to make the game more "fair" we have these clauses. You are not wrong regarding the part I bolded, but what you're missing is that Quick Claw's traditional function is in and of itself problematic. Quick Claw was once one of the items that was banned under the "Hax Items" clause that was listed in the thread because of its inherently luck-based feature, but it was then brought back, which is why this thread was created. Maybe you should realize that you're the one in the dark. There is a logical foundation for this change and I've explained it in the first post of my thread as well. The entire purpose of the suggestion box is to "bother" devs with potentially meaningful changes and it's a win-win situation because the changes we suggest would make us want to play the game more and that aligns with the devs' goals of wanting to maintain its existing playerbase. You're not the devs' spokesperson so I have no idea why you want to label someone's suggestion as "wasting the devs' time." None of us have the ability to stop someone else from using the item, hence why we're complaining about it. Why don't you show us the way then? In fact, why don't you choose a date and time of your convenience to challenge me to a game and if you beat me, I will listen to you. If there are much smarter + experienced competitive players that haven't figured out a way to counter quick-claw users, then you can see why I'd have difficulty in just taking your statement at face value. It's simply a dressed-up version of "Get good". So I'm giving you this opportunity of showing me how I can be a better player at a date and time of your choosing (you can PM me this if you wish). If you win, I'm all ears as to your strategy on how to beat quick-claw users. I can also provide you with a detailed battle-like scenario of why the item is problematic, but it'd be much better if I tried explaining this to you in practice. The reason we don't ban around every single thing that is luck-based is because 1) it would change the entire meaning of actually playing Pokemon because there are some luck-based elements we shouldn't remove and 2) not every randomisation takes away from player autonomy. I'm just going to focus on the last point because that is what is most important. If a pokemon is using Scald with 30% chance to burn, you can switch in your Natural Cure user to absorb the burn, a Magic Guard pokemon to absorb the burn, you can equip your pokemon with items like Lum Berry to heal the burn, or run moves such as Heal Bell or Aromatherapy to heal the burn. In other words, there is some control over these luck-based elements such that even if they do arise, there is a way to counter it or deal with it. The same goes with flinching. Rock Slide has a 30% chance to flinch, but the only way you will be flinching something is if you are slower than the rock-slide user. So we can avoid being flinched as long as our pokemon is faster than the rock-slide user, or run rock-resists such that even if flinches do occur, then it isn't game-changing. To repeat again, even though Rock Slide has the chance to flinch, I still have reasonable control over my choices in order to be prepared against it. This does not happen with Quick Claw users. Sometimes it is impossible to live an attack from a strong boosted pokemon, and so the only way to beat it is by outspeeding and killing it first. If your only, but reliable, way of defeating a +2 Rhyperior is by using a Surf Starmie, and it uses Quick Claw and attacks first, you then proceed to lose the game. You have no absolutely no control over this because you cannot pick and choose when Quick Claw will trigger, and you have no reasonable way to prepare for it. Simply put, my entire strategy was nullified by something that I have zero control over. This is why Quick Claw is problematic.

I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to be in most of your shoes, but it will never surprise me that some people won't admit that they dropped the ball with this by letting these items back in the first place. It's also not surprising that the moment you introduce any element of luck into this game, that there will be a few who are willing to exploit it to its fullest (for example how Wobba-Rain was spammed). There is hardly any utility in bringing back these items, and if there were any, its utility is heavily outweighed by the negative aspects it brings. The only utility it can serve is by possibly making some sets more viable, but at the expense of completely negating another player's already well-built team. I've seen games where a Cloyster is able to beat a +2 Physical Defense boosted Reuniclus just by flinching its way through with Kings Rock. Just because these items weren't banned in Smogon, doesn't mean that they should've been unbanned here in MMO. One possible reason as to why it wasn't banned in Smogon is because these luck-based items are rarely used. The reason for their lack of usage is because there is a stigma associated with running cheap strategies like this, and it's one of the best ways for someone to overlook your skill level and thereby not get picked for a team tournament. Players there are on a higher skill-level and most have respect for the game to not settle down for such strats. The reason its usage is picking up here in MMO is because rather than educating newer players on how to get better by properly playing the game in order to reduce the skill-gap between themselves and a higher skilled player, the ability to use these luck-based items is a quick-fix in reducing that gap because you can skip the "playing better part to the "victory" part. Players here also don't suffer any form or backlash or repercussion for running such strategies other than losing a few points on the ladder. These very same players are probably ones who ladder casually and have nothing to lose while the hard-working players lose valuable time spent in grinding / teambuilding / playing to get better. Re-introducing these items simply added more external factors into a game that we cannot control and we already had enough of that as is.