DoubleJ Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 What is this? This thread is being opened to discuss Dugtrio and its presence in the Underused Tier (UU). Why? Dugtrio is an enigma in PokeMMO, with discussion often flipping back and forth on whether it is broken, uncompetitive, or even a just a joke that should never be considered for a ban. This is largely due to Arena Trap, invalidating susceptible pokemon which only die to the three-headed mole as it is pivoted in off of a U-Turn, Volt Switch, predicted switch, or as a revenge killer. With the introduction of Volt-Turn strategies, Dugtrio has only gotten better. Add to that, its moveset has become far deeper and with Focus Sash it can now reliably stop faster, offensive threats. Given this, Dugtrio is being considered for a possible ban from the Under-Used Tier. It currently meets several banworthy definitions, whether that is uncompetitive (invalidates play styles), unhealthy (restricts the meta), or uber-support (too good not to use). Was a Quick Ban considered? Dugtrio was banned from NU, and afterward we entertained whether a buff in its attack would make it too good for the higher tiers. The Tier Council felt that an attack boost would not make it broken, and thus its attacked was returned to a base 100 and it was allowed entry to UU. Downside? Trap is a unique strategy that can be incredibly infuriating for opponents, but a strategy nevertheless. Dugtrio is effective in stall, balanced, and offensive teams, and its unique speed tier with access to priority can keep hyper-offensive teams and overpowered threats in check. Although, this should not be a reason to keep it in the tier. As is often said, we don't keep broken Pokemon in game to check other broken Pokemon. Something else to consider is whether banning Dugtrio makes any sense at all, when it may be Arena Trap that is to blame. Regardless, at this point in time, we must look at Dugtrio for its ability to remove many common UU Pokemon, and consider Arena Trap later, if Dugtrio suddenly becomes too good or broken for OU. Calculations (Basic calcs, essentially Dugtrio has coverage/utility on almost everything excluding Bronzong and very bulky defenses like Vaporeon, Swampert, etc) Spoiler 252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 90-108 (72 - 86.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 158-188 (82.7 - 98.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 212-250 (110.9 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Crobat: 114-136 (59.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 96-114 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 228-270 (134.1 - 158.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 90-106 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mismagius: 100-118 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Dugtrio Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 144-172 (92.9 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Please discuss, and include which ban criteria you believe Dugtrio meets if you are in favor of a ban. = ) Link to comment
Quinn010 Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 just remove the abbilty already can't wait to see the ou post next year Wallarro, Havsha, Cristi and 7 others 10 Link to comment
Wallarro Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 The real problem in UU is the dugtrio + Pz combo, if they go up one of the two or both xD the tier could be leveled DoubleJ, TohnR and xSparkie 3 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 1 hour ago, Quinn010 said: just remove the abbilty already can't wait to see the ou post next year THIS so much. Dugtrio discussion right now is great regardless, I'll pour some hate later on cuz I'm at work now DoubleJ and TohnR 2 Link to comment
suigin Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 Give Dugtrio Swords Dance so it gets quickbanned ez Huargensy, DoubleJ, JeanMarc and 3 others 2 4 Link to comment
gbwead Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 Why? Seriously, why is Dugtrio considered potentially banworthy in UU, but not OU? Dugtrio does the exact same shit in OU, UU and NU. So why is Dugtrio ALWAYS a problem in lower tiers? Are UU/NU players more stupid than the norm? Are they whining more than the norm? Are they endangered species threathen by the recent Randoms addition and therefore they get special treatement? Dugtrio gets banned in NU, but not in UU and OU. Six months later, Dugtrio gets banned in UU, but not OU. Six months later, Dugtrio gets banned in OU. Six months later, devs invent some kind of new nerf and Dugtrio gets unbanned from OU. Six months later, Dugtrio moves down to UU. Six months later, Dugtrio moves down to NU. Oh devs decide to rebuff Dugtrio in hope to get back in line with the original game mechanics. Six months later, Dugtrio gets banned from NU. And the cycle goes on and on and on. Pardon my french, but this is a fucking joke. It's so dumb. Everyone is wasting their time and resources. Please for once look at the big picture and stop unravelling the progress we have made with this foolish step by step approach. Look at the Tiering Policy and please justify why Dugtrio is ONLY banworthy in UU/NU and not also OU. If it's the same policy for all tiers, please be consistent and open a discussion thread for OU Dugtrio. Stokes, LaMikotoMisaka, Suneet and 9 others 9 3 Link to comment
Quinn010 Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 4 minutes ago, gbwead said: Why? Seriously, why is Dugtrio considered potentially banworthy in UU, but not OU? Dugtrio does the exact same shit in OU, UU and NU. So why is Dugtrio ALWAYS a problem in lower tiers? Are UU/NU players more stupid than the norm? Are they whining more than the norm? Are they endangered species threathen by the recent Randoms addition and therefore they get special treatement? why you attack the uu players when they got nothing to do with this. this is the tc making this tread. Link to comment
gbwead Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Quinn010 said: why you attack the uu players when they got nothing to do with this. this is the tc making this tread. UU players are the one asking for this thread and I pray TC will not give into their demands Link to comment
Quinn010 Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, gbwead said: UU players are the one asking for this thread and I pray TC will not give into their demands source ? i see uu players agree it should be banned in all tiers Edited February 14, 2022 by Quinn010 DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
KaynineXL Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 8 minutes ago, gbwead said: Why? Seriously, why is Dugtrio considered potentially banworthy in UU, but not OU? Dugtrio does the exact same shit in OU, UU and NU. So why is Dugtrio ALWAYS a problem in lower tiers? Are UU/NU players more stupid than the norm? Are they whining more than the norm? Are they endangered species threathen by the recent Randoms addition and therefore they get special treatement? Dugtrio gets banned in NU, but not in UU and OU. Six months later, Dugtrio gets banned in UU, but not OU. Six months later, Dugtrio gets banned in OU. Six months later, devs invent some kind of new nerf and Dugtrio gets unbanned from OU. Six months later, Dugtrio moves down to UU. Six months later, Dugtrio moves down to NU. Oh devs decide to rebuff Dugtrio in hope to get back in line with the original game mechanics. Six months later, Dugtrio gets banned from NU. And the cycle goes on and on and on. Pardon my french, but this is a fucking joke. It's so dumb. Everyone is wasting their time and resources. Please for once look at the big picture and stop unravelling the progress we have made with this foolish step by step approach. Look at the Tiering Policy and please justify why Dugtrio is ONLY banworthy in UU/NU and not also OU. If it's the same policy for all tiers, please be consistent and open a discussion thread for OU Dugtrio. Can't help but read this in gbweads voice and it gave it so much raw passion. I love it. gbwead 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Quinn010 said: source ? i see uu players agree it should be banned in all tiers Huargensy, TohnR and others requested for Dugtrio to get banned in UU in the UU Request Thread and in the February Thread. Edited February 14, 2022 by gbwead Quinn010 1 Link to comment
Havsha Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 For the record I think dugtrio is banworthy in OU too, but this is a discussion about it in UU not OU. DaftKitteh and Axelgor 1 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, Havsha said: For the record I think dugtrio is banworthy in OU too, but this is a discussion about it in UU not OU. That's precisely the issue. The Dugtrio discussion should be about all tiers, not just UU. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 6 minutes ago, gbwead said: That's precisely the issue. The Dugtrio discussion should be about all tiers, not just UU. I think you are wrong. This shouldn't be a discussion about Dugtrio, this should be a discussion about Arena Trap (and don't start with the Trapinch argument or I'll tell Daryl) Imperial and CaptnBaklava 1 1 Link to comment
Huargensy Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 21 minutes ago, gbwead said: Huargensy, TohnR y otros solicitaron que se prohibiera a Dugtrio en UU en el subproceso de solicitud de UU y en el subproceso de febrero. I have been saying since last year that the hab of all levels be eliminated, btw I had already told you in the NU thread And if I said it in UU let me explain, I don't see how healthy it is to have a pZ+dugtrio at the level, eliminating its small number of counts and checks, the pZ discussion just ended 1 month ago to request another and we're not going to hope that this will continue to be exploited, although for me the ability should be removed in all tier, in this case it is more about priority than anything else Juanchoqui, RysPicz, Makarovs and 2 others 5 Link to comment
SweeTforU Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 Ban dugtrio from OU and UU but give it back to us in NU!!! DiosSlurpuff, Bilburt, DoubleJ and 9 others 6 3 3 Link to comment
Havsha Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 I posted this a while back in a movement discussion thread, its more so about arena trap than duggy specifically, but since the two go hand in hand I figured thats fine. The examples I gave I think were more NU orientated since it was NU back then, but the logic and theory remains the same. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 18 hours ago, gbwead said: Why? Seriously, why is Dugtrio considered potentially banworthy in UU, but not OU? Dugtrio does the exact same shit in OU, UU and NU. So why is Dugtrio ALWAYS a problem in lower tiers? Are UU/NU players more stupid than the norm? Are they whining more than the norm? Are they endangered species threathen by the recent Randoms addition and therefore they get special treatement? Dugtrio gets banned in NU, but not in UU and OU. Six months later, Dugtrio gets banned in UU, but not OU. Six months later, Dugtrio gets banned in OU. Six months later, devs invent some kind of new nerf and Dugtrio gets unbanned from OU. Six months later, Dugtrio moves down to UU. Six months later, Dugtrio moves down to NU. Oh devs decide to rebuff Dugtrio in hope to get back in line with the original game mechanics. Six months later, Dugtrio gets banned from NU. And the cycle goes on and on and on. Pardon my french, but this is a fucking joke. It's so dumb. Everyone is wasting their time and resources. Please for once look at the big picture and stop unravelling the progress we have made with this foolish step by step approach. Look at the Tiering Policy and please justify why Dugtrio is ONLY banworthy in UU/NU and not also OU. If it's the same policy for all tiers, please be consistent and open a discussion thread for OU Dugtrio. A ban to dugtrio on OU isn't considered because he already proof that he will not survive on that tier at any ways. Check only their usage on tier, this isn't usage to a mon being viable on tier. And i don't believe that staffs if ban dugtrio to Ubers, and nerf him, they will remove the nerf. Proof is Wobbufet. Before, they are a Ubers mon. Now, he are Untiered, however staff open a thread to suggest remove the nerf on shadow tag? No. Quinn010, Juanchoqui, Axelgor and 11 others 1 2 2 5 2 2 Link to comment
danhred Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 Well I see that they are very entangled in the dugtrio discussion, some want to ban from the uu, others of the whole level but they do not realize that that does not lead anywhere the problem they have from what I see is with dugtrio + sand trap I am sure that if dugtrio did not have the ability of sand trap I would not be arguing about it then first analyze what the problem is and then discuss it I am one of those who have no problem with dugtrio their ability seems ok very good, it is well thought out, you can make a good team with it but it does not affect me in the slightest, every time in pvp I get a dugtrio I laugh even in NU has not been a nuisance for me, now it is true that UU looks dangerous I do not mess with that tier but I think it is normal to be the tier of the center there ends all the shit and is the most difficult to level Imperial, Quinn010 and JeanMarc 1 2 Link to comment
GasaiYunoSan Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, danhred said: Well I see that they are very entangled in the dugtrio discussion, some want to ban from the uu, others of the whole level but they do not realize that that does not lead anywhere the problem they have from what I see is with dugtrio + sand trap I am sure that if dugtrio did not have the ability of sand trap I would not be arguing about it then first analyze what the problem is and then discuss it I am one of those who have no problem with dugtrio their ability seems ok very good, it is well thought out, you can make a good team with it but it does not affect me in the slightest, every time in pvp I get a dugtrio I laugh even in NU has not been a nuisance for me, now it is true that UU looks dangerous I do not mess with that tier but I think it is normal to be the tier of the center there ends all the shit and is the most difficult to level I don't think Dugtrio should be banned from UU because it doesn't give me any problems The Player Edited February 16, 2022 by GasaiYunoSan CaptnBaklava and danhred 1 1 Link to comment
danhred Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 13 minutes ago, GasaiYunoSan said: I don't think Dugtrio should be banned from UU because it doesn't give me any problems The Player I didn't say that, clown Link to comment
danhred Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 3 hours ago, danhred said: I am one of those who have no problem with dugtrio 15 minutes ago, GasaiYunoSan said: I don't think Dugtrio should be banned from UU because it doesn't give me any problems Very different sweetheart Link to comment
GasaiYunoSan Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 I was waiting for this post. What is Dugtrio's problem? The pokemon individually is not a big problem, however, when you find a duo good enough for dugtrio to break almost an entire meta then that's when Dugtrio becomes a big problem, the current problem is Dugtrio + PZ OR Yanmega, even if they ban PZ, Yanmega + Dugtrio would still be a problem. When PorygonZ went down, the players who now ask for the ban of PorygonZ or Dugtrio did not have problems because of PorygonZ, why? because the meta was able to adapt, and as a consequence we saw the rise of Gigalith to UU, everything seemed to be going well, yes, Dugtrio was in the level, but he did not have 100 base atk, but the great council of the level decided to return the 20 points of atk base on Dugtrio, as a consequence of that buff there was enough damage for PorygonZ to sweep against teams that had Gigalith-Empoleon as their main brake, now to win tournaments you just need to use PorygonZ-Dugtrio and boom, you won a tournament, OMG what good player. Even if Dugtrio's buff is removed, he will continue to break the meta along with PorygonZ, because people already realized that this duo can kill almost everything, it will not be the solution, simply banning him from UU is the only thing that can be done , but why not ban it from OU? Because it doesn't have a duo with which to destroy the meta or be a great threat, Dugtrio + Togekiss? There's too much rotom for Togekiss to be a huge threat, even if it's not rotom, Weavile destroys both pokemon, and so there are even more brakes that can't be solved with Dugtrio, Dugtrio just won't be a real threat until he meets a duo/strategy strong enough to be a cancer in OU. Yes, Arena Trap's ability is a cancer in all meta and tiers of all pokemon, but in PokeMMO OU for now it doesn't seem to deserve a ban, it used to be a cancer when used to destroy Chansey/Blissey with Screech and Wobbuffett for the Rain to destroy everything, but currently thanks to Teleport this strategy can no longer be carried out. #BanDugtrioFromUU Makarovs, JohntheJester, RysPicz and 2 others 5 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted February 16, 2022 Author Share Posted February 16, 2022 I personally agree with @GasaiYunoSan, Dugtrio is proving too much for UU and is forming a broken combo, supporting Porygon-Z to astronomical levels by removing all of its counters with relative ease (Teleport once, poof). I recognize that Arena Trap is certainly the real problem, but it hasn't proven to break OU in theory or in practice currently. Will that be the case a few months from now when Dugtrio can only be used in one tier resulting in probably higher usage? We don't know, but until then, our focus must be on UU and whether Dugtrio is banworthy there first. GasaiYunoSan and RysPicz 1 1 Link to comment
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