CHUCKunso Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 Evasion boost is a problem in OU. Defog on Wash is a free switch to Serp which not only grants momentum (which is fine) but also might enable it to dodge RKing (which is not fine). TohnR, PoseidonWrath and RysPicz 3 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 7 minutes ago, CHUCKunso said: Evasion boost is a problem in OU. Defog on Wash is a free switch to Serp which not only grants momentum (which is fine) but also might enable it to dodge RKing (which is not fine). Exactly this make Evasion not problematic. Because of this factor, your opponent will not just click defog for free unless he are dumb, and will think two times before defog. Just the pressure maked on opponent is enough. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 3 hours ago, pachima said: TLDR; Ban serperior until even more broken stuff come, ignoring the fact the argument pretty much folds to itself while also ignoring the fact MMO will be forced to change their mentality when it comes to offensive bans with HA/legendaries, no matter what they want or they think they want. Otherwise, please stop suggesting legendaries because there is no way we can have half of them if apparently serperior is too strong. I'm unsure if this was directed towards me and my post where I included plethora of legendaries, but don't get me wrong Pachi, I totally don't suggest adding legendaries just to counter Serp- I barely noted how many of potential counters from Serperior's first main OU metagame we are missing. Funnily enough, most of them are mega evos and legendaries (Regenerator Amoonguus being the only one non-legendary from those available for us). I don't know if temporary ban for Serperior until a new batch of HAs would make any sense, considering the fact that almost all of Serperior's natural metagame counters are either legendaries, mega evolutions or gen6 mons. I still believe that restricting Serperior from using Contrary until we get legendaries is the way to go. At least we will have a screen setter in NU kappa LpZ, Quinn010, MadaraSixSix and 1 other 4 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, CHUCKunso said: Just leave this discussion please if you don't want to contribute anything of value. A strategy that can be used is just enter with rotom, and instead of click defog, can click Trick(locking serperior, a thing that serperior Hates), or volt switch to allow a RK to KO it. Now rotom-w players will not just enter and click defog for free, he will need to predict and make a problematic situation to serperior first. Edited September 28, 2022 by caioxlive13 Link to comment
Munya Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 What about a particular item that boosts a users Special Defense by 50% but prevents them from using status moves, how would that effect serperior if it does at all? repposh, Makarovs, Lumiere and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment
Makarovs Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Munya said: What about a particular item that boosts a users Special Defense by 50% but prevents them from using status moves, how would that effect serperior if it does at all? is that a spoiler or something? Edited September 28, 2022 by Makarovs PoseidonWrath 1 Link to comment
Munya Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 Consider it a possibility for the sake of the discussion. It shouldn't be considered in the if Serperior should be banned now but more of the question of, does it fix it if Serp needs to be banned now? Or if not fix, help. Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Munya said: What about a particular item that boosts a users Special Defense by 50% but prevents them from using status moves, how would that effect serperior if it does at all? Wait, which item have this e... no... Assault Vest? Please... add it. Also, Heavy-Duty Boots helps too, Volcarona appreciate it(If need a new name due to Copyright, can consider: Reinforced Iron Boots) Edited September 28, 2022 by caioxlive13 Link to comment
Azphiel Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 Overall I like the idea of Assault Vest to help checking the uncheckable special attackers (Hydreigon) But introducing the item for the sake of helping vs Serperior seems wrong as the few Serperior checks such as Togekiss Volcarona or Chandelure would struggle vs Assault Vest users like Mienshao or Tyranitar, and I fear that the addition of the item would indirectly help Serperior instead of helping against it Luke, gbwead, MadaraSixSix and 4 others 7 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Azphiel said: Overall I like the idea of Assault Vest to help checking the uncheckable special attackers (Hydreigon) But introducing the item for the sake of helping vs Serperior seems wrong as the few Serperior checks such as Togekiss Volcarona or Chandelure would struggle vs Assault Vest users like Mienshao or Tyranitar, and I fear that the addition of the item would indirectly help Serperior instead of helping against it Add HDB too. This will help a lot some mons to switch-in on Serperior regardless of hazards. Like volcarona and Crobat. Edited September 29, 2022 by caioxlive13 HumongousNoodle and Azphiel 2 Link to comment
MadaraSixSix Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 9 hours ago, PoseidonWrath said: What is this? This thread is being opened to discuss Serperior and its dominant existence in the Overused Tier (OU). Characteristics - Serperior`s speed is great and can get momentum really easily, the only mons that outspeed it in OU are: Starmie, Weavile, Jolteon and Dugtrio. Out of that list only weavile is the most popular revengekiller that with support of teleport for example will shut down the momentum of Serperiors Wrath. -The abillity Contrary, is what makes Serperior deadly. lt gives Serperior a +2 boost instead of -2, which means using leaf storm makes Serperior a threat in OU. Serperior may also get an evasion boost after switching into a potential defog which makes it difficult to handle. -With 75 HP, 95 DEF and 95 SPDEF, Serperior tanks hits more easily than the average OU mon. Calcs: Reveal hidden contents Reveal hidden contents 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 120-142 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery +1 252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 124-148 (82.6 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 120-142 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 126-150 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 118-140 (78.6 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, 252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 120-143 (80 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 75-91 (50 - 60.6%) -- 87.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 88-105 (58.6 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 126-150 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 104-126 (69.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 108-127 (72 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 116-138 (77.3 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 125-148 (83.3 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 109-130 (72.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 117-138 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 63-75 (42 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior in Sun: 128-152 (85.3 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 136-161 (90.6 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 136-161 (86.6 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO 252 SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 104-124 (69.3 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 135-161 (90 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 97-114 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 117-140 (78 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 136-160 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 100-118 (66.6 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 72-85 (48 - 56.6%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Sets on Serperior: Subtitute Leech Seed, Glare, Leafstorm Subtitute ,Leech Seed ,HP Fire, Leafstorm Subtitute, Glare, HP Fire, Leafstorm Leafstorm, DragonPulse, HP Fire, Glare -Notable moves: Taunt (Blissey, Chansey, Golbat, Crobat etc denies the teleport and denies recovery) HP Rock (Pairing it with magnezone so u got coverage for steel types in general) Checks/Counters: -Calm Weezing (3% usage, Bold weezing 90% is more popular) denies Serperior`s boost which makes it difficult to set up but is vulnerable to Glare/Leech sets. -Calm clefable with unaware completly ignores the stats boosts from Serperior but is also vulnerable to Glare/Leech sets. -Volcarona good typing, perfect bulk and stab that goes through subtitute makes Serperior think twice before setting up. But is vulnerable to Glare/HP Rock -Chansey/Blissey +Weavile or scarf sweeper, teleport to give momentum to your fast sweeper. -Crobat/ Golbat in general is good vs Serperior, Glare/Rocks/Leech hurts it a bit. Also with U-turn Golbat can deny Serperior set up with subtitute and can safely go to your fast sweeper. Feel free to give your input and discuss away I really like this post it explains the problems of serperior very well i think using the chansey teleport + weavile combos to manage a single pokemon is a lot of effort (and if weavile 2hit dont kill) 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 132-156 (88 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO when the other opponent uses only one pokemon the defog that increases dodge is anecdotal the problem of serp is all of what it accomplishes there this bosst +2 with a strong move (leaf strom 130power) it has a very good bulk and one of the best speed in the game and it has enough to glare or leech seed to win against golbat or weezing for example Bertolfoso, gbwead, Wallarro and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Onraider Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) Didnt give a lot of thought into this so might sound silly but what about only removing glare from serperior's movepool? does its remaining tools still make it worthy of more nerfs or not as bad with the removal And with regards to any nerfs/buffs i think changes should be done only to serperior and not with introducing stuff like assault vest specifically for this since it can have a lot of unexpected effects in many other non-serperior interactions Edited September 29, 2022 by Onraider Link to comment
gbwead Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Munya said: What about a particular item that boosts a users Special Defense by 50% but prevents them from using status moves, how would that effect serperior if it does at all? Assault Vest would be a terrible addition imo and I would even argue that it would make Serperior stronger. When I think of potential Assault Vest users, I think above all else about Mienshao. Sadly, Assault Vest doesn't enable Mienshao to counter Serperior, but what it allows Mienshao to very effectively stop Chandelure and Volcarona. Since Volcarona and Chandelure are some of the best answers to Serperior and assault vest would just hurt their viability, Assault Vest would most likely make Serperior more viable. Furthermore, for a lot of mons, Assault Vest is not a realistic option, but when I look at Serperior, I could actually consider playing one with Assault Vest (Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, HP Fire and Dragon Pulse). I am not saying Assault Vest Serperior would be broken or it would be the optimal set to run. Not at all. I just think Assault Vest gives Serperior the option to tank Hurricane from Kingdra in Rain or Bug Buzz from Volcarona. Helping Serperior deal with special attackers is not a good idea imo. Overall, I believe the addition of Assault Vest can only make Serperior stronger directly or indirectly, but there is a good chance any change will be so minimal that it would not even matter. If Assault Vest is added, whatever, but I seriously hope the reason Assault Vest is added is not Serperior because that could only be a mistake from what I can see. Edited September 29, 2022 by gbwead PoseidonWrath and ArtOfKilling 2 Link to comment
Huargensy Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 5 minutes ago, gbwead said: Assault Vest would be a terrible addition imo and I would even argue that it would make Serperior stronger. When I think of potential Assault Vest users, I think above all else about Mienshao. Sadly, Assault Vest doesn't enable Mienshao to counter Serperior, but what it allows Mienshao to very effectively stop Chandelure and Volcarona. Since Volcarona and Chandelure are some of the best answers to Serperior and assault vest would just hurt their viability, Assault Vest would most likely make Serperior more viable. Furthermore, for a lot of mons, Assault Vest is not a realistic option, but when I look at Serperior, I could actually consider playing one with Assault Vest (Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, HP Fire and Dragon Pulse). I am not saying Assault Vest Serperior would be broken or it would be the optimal set to run. Not at all. I just think Assault Vest gives Serperior the option to tank Hurricane from Kingdra in Rain or Bug Buzz from Volcarona. Helping Serperior deal with special attackers is not a good idea imo. Overall, I believe the addition of Assault Vest can only make Serperior stronger directly or indirectly, but there is a good chance any change will be so minimal that it would not even matter. If Assault Vest is added, whatever, but I seriously hope the reason Assault Vest is added is not Serperior because that could only be a mistake from what I can see. If he run assault vest, you can't use glare or subseed, weezing would be a 100% count of the assault set, while crobat and golbat would fear glare Link to comment
gbwead Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 3 minutes ago, Huargensy said: If he run assault vest, you can't use glare or subseed, weezing would be a 100% count of the assault set, while crobat and golbat would fear glare I know what it means. I'm not even saying Assault Vest on Serperior is good or a game changer, it's a sacrifice for sure since Glare and Leech Seed are great moves. However, I still think AV Serperior can have some value. When I look at the most common Rain Team right now (Excadrill, Pelipper, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Scizor, Kingdra), I think AV Serp would almost automatically win here thanks to the extra special bulk. Link to comment
azuloon Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 2 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said: there this bosst +2 with a strong move (leaf strom 130power) Would reducing the power of Leaf Storm to say 80 or 90 do anything? Didn’t PokeMMO reduce the power of Outrage? The thing about Leaf Storm on Serp is the +2 so I’m not sure if it would make much of a difference. Link to comment
Huargensy Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 30 minutes ago, azuloon said: Would reducing the power of Leaf Storm to say 80 or 90 do anything? Didn’t PokeMMO reduce the power of Outrage? The thing about Leaf Storm on Serp is the +2 so I’m not sure if it would make much of a difference. They would harm the other mons grass who are not to blame Imperial 1 Link to comment
azuloon Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 8 minutes ago, Huargensy said: They would harm the other mons grass who are not to blame Sorry I meant for Serp only but idk if thats even possible Link to comment
Munya Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 1 hour ago, azuloon said: Would reducing the power of Leaf Storm to say 80 or 90 do anything? Didn’t PokeMMO reduce the power of Outrage? The thing about Leaf Storm on Serp is the +2 so I’m not sure if it would make much of a difference. No, we never increased its power is more accurate to the truth. It was 90 in gen 3 which is where MMO all began. Link to comment
Zymogen Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 13 hours ago, Bertolfoso said: Disagree with this reasoning (ban ghosts because they spin block you and let rocks on your field?), Serperior is broken not because it switches in on Defog but because it simply doesn't have consistent counters. This isn’t comparable at all. An evasion boost from defog takes autonomy away from the opposing player and forces them to rely on luck to counter a mon that already has very few reliable answers. Playing vs a ghost type does not do this. Link to comment
suigin Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 Let's cut to the chase and just remove glare, taunt or leech seed from its learnpool. It's the perfect solution as it doesn't tackle the actual problem but it allows more things to barely switch in without being punished too hard and it doesn't make little timmy who spent like 3m breeding his Serp want to ragequit. I haven't seen a single game with Serperior, haven't played at all since the second part of the anniversary event finished and I am not qualified to talk about the meta but I know the other side of the curtain well enough to know where this is headed. No, AV won't fix this and will in fact make Conkeldurr even stronger, Heavy Duty Boots will cause more issues than fix them too, it's not worth it. Alternatively just rush part 3 out and give us the other toys that may actually deal with this mess. PoseidonWrath, azuloon, RysPicz and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Draekyn Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 Introduce AV along with 65bp Knock Off and more non-problematic HAs Quinn010 and WQX 2 Link to comment
Mkns1070 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 Azumarill Sap Sipper wall it EmilioGarras and suigin 2 Link to comment
gbwead Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 For the sake of this discussion, can anyone list the mons that will be able to counter Serperior thanks to Assault Vest? Link to comment
Mkns1070 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 17 minutes ago, gbwead said: For the sake of this discussion, can anyone list the mons that will be able to counter Serperior thanks to Assault Vest? boufalant 😄 RysPicz, MendeeZ, Luke and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
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