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December 2022- Movement Discussion Thread


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35 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

I'm having very tough time understanding that with the precedent of Haxorus being doomed to BL after a disastrous attempt of testing it in UU that how on earth would you drop Salamence to UU even for a day.

I actually asked the same thing in the TC discord even though people here weren't immediately jumping on to ban it either.  Though I wasn't as confident in my question as you seem to be.

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21 minutes ago, Munya said:

I actually asked the same thing in the TC discord even though people here weren't immediately jumping on to ban it either.  Though I wasn't as confident in my question as you seem to be.

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While Haxorus arguably has lesser counters than Salamence, there are so many ways where Salamence is far more diverse and useful Pokemon. Against "a team, unbothered by Salamence's existence" Salamence would achieve a lot of the work Haxorus would - however I must admit against teams dedicated of countering Salamence, it would have a tougher time shining than Haxorus did due to lack of Mold Breaker, worse attack and Superpower. But lack of counters shouldn't be the only defining factor when deciding if a Pokemon belongs to a tier or not, and never has been. A Pokemon may just be so good in so many ways that even when countered, the opportunity cost of using that Pokemon is so small that even when facing a team dedicated of countering you, it is still worth it playing that Pokemon. For me, Salamence falls to this category. I'm personally confident that even with more counters, it does too many things too well and what it lacks in physical attack power is compensated heavily with its mixed coverage, while also providing other valuable traits that would make Salamence a bit too easy pick for a variety of roles in UU environment.

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So, I think there's a way to prevent, at least for a month, salamence from falling to the UU. Canceling OU movements. "But we can't cancel movements from a tier without reason" Well, there is a valid reason, which is called Multiscale Dragonite, a very impactant HA released in the middle of November. The meta had to change and that messed up the usage table. With Dragonite's HA, Salamence will continue with low usage in the OU and will drop in the last month of the season. However, the tier council will have a whole month to calmly analyze if Salamence will be broken or not.

Before someone say that Dragonite's HA don't impact too much, Nite's HA gets released 6 days ago and HA Nites represents more than 30% of Dragonites of OU

Edited by caioxlive13
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10 hours ago, Munya said:

At least one TC member has asked to BL raptor, told them to make a thread for a quickban if thats something we need to do.


I do not have the capabilities to do it, and i doubt its in the current framework for usage, but I'm sure its within the possibility to be added eventually.

Wasn't Staraptor quickbanned to OU when it got its hidden ability in the first place? Nobody ever argued it would be any good in OU, the only reason it went is because it was too good for UU. 

I don't even wanna talk about Salamence 

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Also how come the same council that wanted to ban Feraligatr just a few months ago is now tolerating Crawdaunt, a mon that has the exact same set and 150% of Feraligatr power to the point that Feral has been fully replaced by it and its usage dropped to the ground ...

When I argued about possible answers for Feral with Poli & Toxicroak then I got argued back by a lot of people that they were at best shaky answer and not that good in the metagame, but now we have this powerhouse allowed and it's completely fine ?

I'm still looking for a coherent decision there

Edited by TohnR
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What makes salamence test worthy you people ask. And how it differs from haxorus? I guess the people that don't want salamence to drop in UU haven't done much research on the tier nor calculated possible damages. 

I ll start by saying that the defensive set is nothing noteworthy to put into a discussion for a ban so I won't bother with it. 

Let's continue with the dragon dance set: dragon dance salamence has a few or maybe more than a few answers in UU. To me, quagsire is one of the most notable checks, unaware lets it be able to check salamence after its boosts. The calcs are pretty simple, you guys can go make them. There is also Vaporeon, mandibuzz, both of them conditionally. Umbreon can take check it pretty nicely aswell, Bronzong I haven't calculated but I'm pretty sure that with gyro ball on its kit and resistance to it's main STAB attacks should aswell be able to stop it. I think i can stop here with checks for DD set.

The Pokemons listed have a very nice presence in UU meta already.

 

Special attacker salamence I don't think we need to go very far. The most used special walls in the tier stop it. Those are snorlax and gigalith.

 

What could potentially be an issue and what for me would be the best way to utilize salamence, is the mixed attacker set. Through calcs you will find out that again Umbreon, snorlax, Vaporeon have the ability to stop salamence 1v1 with maybe a little customization on their spreads, that customization being to not run max special defense on snorlax ( I doubt anyone does that) or invest like 30-40 ivs on special defense for Vaporeon to avoid getting 2hkod by draco meteor after stealth rock ( not even counting that Vaporeon max HP max def can protect after the first draco to heal a little bit with leftovers and avoid the 2hko this way.  I have also calculated that mandibuzz can become a soft check for mixed set with a little tweaking, jellicent aswell, gligar can absorb draco meteors and pivot out.

Those for me would be the most notable. So for me these are plenty of options to handle salamence by itself. 

One more drawback would be the prediction factor. You can't spam draco that easily when you are against something like bronzong and if u click flamethrower/fire blast it would mean that snorlax will get healed by your attack. I listed the bronzong/snorlax combo because those 2 are a very solid and common defensive core which would make the salamence user think very well of the moves it would click. So while salamence can break these 2 Pokemons with its mixed kit, it would rely on great predictions to do so.

 

I ve seen many people here and in discord arguing salamence with the comparison to haxorus but that just sounds like lazy salt to me. Haxorus is forever BL from before and even now more than ever because it has an attack stat of 157 and also an ability that counters its potential checks. Mold breaker negates levitate(for bronzong), unaware (for quagsire), prankster ( for sableye). There is no comparison between the two. 

 

And going back to the mixed salamence spread I would argue to everyone to open the calculator and toy a bit with the Pokemons I presented and their spread to check for themselves if the mixed set has the ability to get stopped. I personally found that snorlax doesn't get 2hkod by a combination of draco and brick break, same goes for Umbreon and gigalith and all 3 Pokemons have the ability to cripple or heavily damage salamence.

 

 To sum it up, in a UU tier that is already centralized to a certain pokemon and that is stall favoured AGAIN, the presence of a potential versatile attacker should be something people should look forward to so the tier gets a bit balanced out or generally more fun to play. 

 

 So in my opinion, YES! test it. YES! we should allow it to drop.

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7 hours ago, TohnR said:

Wasn't Staraptor quickbanned to OU when it got its hidden ability in the first place? Nobody ever argued it would be any good in OU, the only reason it went is because it was too good for UU. 

Wasn't quickbanned it was put where it was believed it would be via usage almost all of those were if not all of them.  A quickban would follow the procedure of having a thread with no pre-defined time limits on it so it could be as short as a day informing players that a ban is likely imminent for it so they can communicate on the matter if they so desire.

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Just now, Munya said:

Wasn't quickbanned it was put where it was believed it would be via usage almost all of those were if not all of them.  A quickban would follow the procedure of having a thread with no pre-defined time limits on it so it could be as short as a day informing players that a ban is likely imminent for it so they can communicate on the matter if they so desire.

A little bit like Electrode getting quick banned from NU xD

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

A little bit like Electrode getting quick banned from NU xD

Things change, and I also don't have to read one of seniles books to try and figure out how a ban procedure should take place anymore.  I am always open to testing Electrode again as I never had an opinion on it being banned or not in the first place.

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1 minute ago, Munya said:

Things change, and I also don't have to read one of seniles books to try and figure out how a ban procedure should take place anymore.  I am always open to testing Electrode again as I never had an opinion on it being banned or not in the first place.

It's UU by usage anyways.

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Well, nobody commented about this but here we go. 

On 11/19/2022 at 8:49 PM, caioxlive13 said:

All moves added(And if applicable, a Ability Shift):

  Hide contents

Wigglytuff:
- Added Nasty Plot
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Dugtrio:
- Added Swords Dance
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Golduck:
- Added Nasty Plot
- Added Power Gem
-----
Primeape:
- Added Stealth Rock
-----
Muk:
- Added Drain Punch
- Added Toxic Spikes
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Gengar:
- Added Toxic Spikes
-----
Dragonite:
- Added Encore
-----
Sudowoodo:
- Added Spikes
-----
Quagsire:
- Added Stealth Rock
- Added Spikes
- Added Toxic Spikes
-----
Umbreon:
- Added Thunder Wave
-----
Tyranitar:
- Added Power Gem
-----
Gardevoir
- Added Aura Sphere
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Masquerain
- Added Hurricane
-----
Breloom
- Added Close Combat
- Added Gunk Shot
- Added Bulldoze
-----
Hariyama
- Added Drain Punch
-----
Sableye
- Added Giga Drain
- Added Reflect
- Added Light Screen
-----
Medicham
- Added Close Combat
-----
Swalot
- Added Swords Dance
- Added Toxic Spikes
-----
Torkoal
- Added Flare Blitz 
-----
Grumpig
- Added Nasty Plot 
- Added Earth Power
-----
Cacturne
- Added Toxic Spikes
-----
Zangooze
- Added Agility
-----
Whishcash
- Added Stealth Rock
- Added Spikes
-----
Banette
- Added Swords Dance
-----
Tropius
- Added U-Turn
- Added Hurricane
-----
Vespiqueen
- Added Spikes
-----
Gastrodon
- Added Spikes
- Added Stealth Rock
-----
Drifblim
- Added Air Slash
-----
Honckrow
- Added U-Turn
- Added Hurricane
-----
Skuntank
- Added Toxic Spikes
-----
Garchomp
- Added Spikes
- Added Thunder Fang
-----
Gallade
- Ability Added: Sharpness 
Effect: Slicing-moves have 1,5x power
- Added Agility
- Added Sacred Sword
-----
Samurott
- Added Drill Run
-----
Krokodile
- Added Gunk Shot
-----
Zoroark
- Added Crunch
-----
Sawsbuck
- Added Zen Headbutt
- Added Body Slam
-----
Eelektross
- Added Close Combat
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Haxorus
- Added Iron Head
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Beartic
- Added Close Combat
- Added Earthquake
-----
Hydreigon
- Added Stealth Rock

Picked all info from here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ox3SwLFTP0ZfOj-O-1ijn8Im8kU0QnjNyi3AJ6a5feM/htmlview?usp=drivesdk&pru=AAABhLY3QoY*VS9Zs3L_Wy0K-qHqAC6DfA#
 

On this thread i listed the possible moveset changes, and i want to bring attention to one change: 
Sableye
- Added Giga Drain
- Added Reflect
- Added Light Screen

Giga drain isn't too big, but i wish to talk about Dual Screens. Now sableye can set screens with Priority. Any chance to it get quickbanned from NU after the Movepool Update?
Electrode gets quickbanned on NU because of setting screens, and with a great speed, pass the entire tier. Now, the situation is worse. 
Sableye's cons is only doesn't have a pivot move/self-ko move to grant a safe switch to a partner, unlike electrode that have Volt Switch and Explosion. But, sableye can set with priority, so speed doesn't matter. The priority apply to taunt, preventing defog users to clean screens, or opponent to set Entry Hazards while setuping. Their Ghost-type grants immunity to all prioritys except Bullet Punch, and Immunity to Brick Break , that could clean the Screens. On top of that, their Dark-type grants 100% Immunity from Whimsicott's Prankster-boosted Taunt, a immunity that Electrode doesn't have.

Edited by caioxlive13
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21 minutes ago, gbwead said:

@caioxlive13 This thread is to discuss the tiering movements for December 2022. Unless devs announce these changes in the very near future, your comment is completly irrelevant.

I know. But what we don't know is when there will be the movepool update. It could be mid-December, at Christmas, or after. 

I'm taking advantage of the Electrode discussion to ask about the Sableye situation.

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Im not a big fan of it but if we drop Salamence to UU for a potential suspect test we should drop him with P2 that can be really usefull against him.




And on a really optimistic view , drop every UUBL mon  : Lucario (salamence can check him) PZ (p2 can check him) P2 ( we have machamp guts/potential lucario) Haxorus (no check to him but why not )

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