[PvP Updates] Gen 9-2 DLC and Reverse Nerfs

[AegonTargaryen]

knock off power up never?

[caioxlive13]

8 hours ago, suigin said:

This is an excellent question

The official story was that they didn't want to add stuff that could potentially make a pokemon uber because that'd remove a lot of player effort hence why, when gen 5 was being developed, the devs consulted the tc and got advice on what to remove, including Hydrei's draco, SB Blaziken, ST Gothitelle.

Obviously this changed and they no longer follow the TC's guidance and now follow Gamefreak's changes nilly willy without any second guesses, removing half of the defensive meta game without caring about player effort. So when are we getting Speed Boost Blaziken with 1.3 boosts each turn?

 

I think devs could do three type of changes:

Forced Changes - The ones that Generations Brings. Those cannot be stopped by TC. This include the Movepool Changes, Ability Release, and Move's mechanic change.
Semi-Forced Changes - The ones that Generations took off, but this restricted only by Abilitys and Movepool Changes, and not PP adjustments because this would give freedom to ask any pp adjustment even if are part of mechanic changes. Those changes could be asked for TC if they let both applied, or the more recent. For example: Defiant Empoleon - Empoleon could've Defiant and Competitive both as their HAs, or only Competitive, what TC decides is applied
Custom Changes - The ones that doesn't follow any gen change, it's just for the sake of balancing the PvP. Any of those should be asked on TC to see if it's ever happening. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Kinosagui]

so that means fairy?

 

[DoubleJ]

Gallade changes came from the man. So long as we have a way to calc it and it's not broke, then that's fine. We (TC) will be keeping a close watch, but a strong Psychic+Fighting type can bring a lot of good so long as it's not broke. 

[scyther7u7]

now with the movements of 9 generation, could also reach Trailblaze and Dual Wingbeat?

[gatocacheton]

Can we get More HA please? Slowbro, Alomomola can help with Gallade but atm they are almost useless, also there's some great moves that also could change all like Aurora veil or Freeze dry... I honestly think that most of the issues we have atm are because things are being add and while we wait for others that can handle those things, we have a lot of OP stuffs happening, so i Guess the flavor of the next months Is The dark Dragon with Draco meteor... Let's pray for those special walls to be strong enought... Hehe

Edited October 6, 2023 by gatocacheton

[gbwead]

Can we add a beak to Dragonite game design? I think the OU meta could really benefit from Dragonite being able to learn moves like Drill Peck.

[pachima]

9 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Gallade changes came from the man. So long as we have a way to calc it and it's not broke, then that's fine. We (TC) will be keeping a close watch, but a strong Psychic+Fighting type can bring a lot of good so long as it's not broke. 

I see you care a lot about Gallade's financial issues.

[Quinn010]

buff outrage and give tangrowth

[pachima]

10 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

buff outrage and give tangrowth

Why not tangrowth with outrage?

 

[RysPicz]

I think we could boost Sheer Force to x1,5 instead 1.3. This way, Feraligatr and Nidoking will become really viable in OU, but because Darmanitan would be very strong, we should nerf it's attack stat by 25. Thoughts?

E:

While at it, we could also boost Adaptability from x2 -> 2,137. Believe me, Polish communtiy would appreciate this change a huge lot

Edited October 6, 2023 by RysPicz

[Lumiere]

Community, remember that the topic about the Gallade buff doesn't fall to the Tier Council and no matter how much we answer your questions about it, our opinion will not influence the decision before it's implemented.

No matter how much we as TC members may disagree with this decision, if the people in charge want to give it a trial period we cannot go against it, but we can decide our votes after the trial period ends.

Making sarcastic or offensive comments will not help to change people in charge mind about their decision. It's recommended to give solid arguments or elaborate comments like gbwead if you want to at least be read by them. Please don't ask if they will respond or explain this because we as TC don't plan to target anyone.

Cheers.

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, Lumiere said:

Community, remember that the topic about the Gallade buff doesn't fall to the Tier Council and no matter how much we answer your questions about it, our opinion will not influence the decision before it's implemented.

No matter how much we as TC members may disagree with this decision, if the people in charge want to give it a trial period we cannot go against it, but we can decide our votes after the trial period ends.

Making sarcastic or offensive comments will not help to change people in charge mind about their decision. It's recommended to give solid arguments or elaborate comments like gbwead if you want to at least be read by them. Please don't ask if they will respond or explain this because we as TC don't plan to target anyone.

Cheers.

We are fully aware that this was not your call guys, nor we are bashing you for it, we know that this is out of your hands.

What my post was supposed to do, was to show how huge precedent that kind of nerf is creating. I thought PokeMMO had some rules, some borders we do not cross, we were supposed to stay loyal to the games. Suddenly, with that kind of change going back and forth, players can (and will) start suggesting changes like I just sarcastically did.

 

I really do like all the changes, from my personal perspective even the Sharpness upgrade is nice for me, but I'm thinking about consequences of such actions that surely will follow.

Edited October 6, 2023 by RysPicz

[DoubleJ]

Dragon Claw to BP 95

Rock Slide to 100% Accuracy

Focus Blast to 90% Accuracy

Signal Beam to BP 90

 

All recovery moves to 5 pp max. 

 

Ez. 

[gbwead]

Since it seems the buff is going to happen no matter what, I would like to suggest an alternative that imo would be more "clean". It would still be fucked up, but still closer to the original games.

 

In the original games, Sharpness gives a 1.5 boost to slicing moves:

• 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 70-84 (40.6 - 48.8%)
• 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 114-136 (72.6 - 86.6%)

The suggested change would give Sharpness a 1.4 boost to slicing moves:

• 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 66-78 (38.3 - 45.3%)
• 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 106-126 (67.5 - 80.2%)

 

I suggest applying the Sharpness buff as a bonus to the the stab boost. Usually stab moves get a 1.5 boost. Here stab moves affected by Sharpness would get a (1.5 + 0.5) boost, so x2 like adaptability. Non stab moves affected by Sharpness would get a (1+0.5) boost, so x1.5 like the original game Sharpness. This would give us the following calcs:

• 252+ Atk Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 62-74 (36 - 43%) / This is extremely close to the current dmg output with the x1.3 boost (35.4 - 42.4%).
• 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 114-136 (72.6 - 86.6%)

I think this way Sharpness would be authentic for Leaf Blade and Night Slash, but would still be nerfed on Sacred Sword and Psycho Cut on which the dmg output was deemed problematic. The boost would be exactly the same as the original games, but at least by applying the boost with the stab bonus Sharpness would be more "manageable" than the original game Sharpness. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer all the following options before considering my buff option or the 1.4 buff option:

1. Sharpness to be removed entirely
2. Sharpness to remain nerfed as it is (x1.3)
3. Sharpness to go back to (x1.5)

However, if Sharpness has to be buffed, I would prefer to see this buff because it's closer to the original mechanics, more balanced than a x1.4 boost imo and less messy overall.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by gbwead

[TohnR]

16 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Since it seems the buff is going to happen no matter what, I would like to suggest an alternative that imo would be more "clean". It would still be fucked up, but still closer to the original games.

 

In the original games, Sharpness gives a 1.5 boost to slicing moves:

• 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 70-84 (40.6 - 48.8%)
• 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 114-136 (72.6 - 86.6%)

The suggested change would give Sharpness a 1.4 boost to slicing moves:

• 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 66-78 (38.3 - 45.3%)
• 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 106-126 (67.5 - 80.2%)

 

I suggest applying the Sharpness buff as a bonus to the the stab boost. Usually stab moves get a 1.5 boost. Here stab moves affected by Sharpness would get a (1.5 + 0.5) boost, so x2 like adaptability. Non stab moves affected by Sharpness would get a (1+0.5) boost, so x1.5 like the original game Sharpness. This would give us the following calcs:

• 252+ Atk Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 62-74 (36 - 43%) / This is extremely close to the current dmg output with the x1.3 boost (35.4 - 42.4%).
• 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 114-136 (72.6 - 86.6%)

I think this way Sharpness would be authentic for Leaf Blade and Night Slash, but would still be nerfed on Sacred Sword and Psycho Cut on which the dmg output was deemed problematic. The boost would be exactly the same as the original games, but at least by applying the boost with the stab bonus Sharpness would be more "manageable" than the original game Sharpness. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer all the following options before considering my buff option or the 1.4 buff option:

1. Sharpness to be removed entirely
2. Sharpness to remain nerfed as it is (x1.3)
3. Sharpness to go back to (x1.5)

However, if Sharpness has to be buffed, I would prefer to see this buff because it's closer to the original mechanics, more balanced than a x1.4 boost imo and less messy overall.

Go explain your suggestion to new players who come in and see Gallade has sharpness in a gen5 environment, feel excited to play it, and don't understand why their rolls don't match the calculator. I don't necessarily dislike your suggestion I just mean that this would not help. The real problem is that the game is absolutely impossible to understand for people who haven't been around for literal years. At least doing 40% instead of 50% power boost can be written in the ability subtext and easily understood, without having to be told by a more experienced player. Altho I agree it's awful for any comp nerd to see those random numbers which don't make any sense 

My issue with all of this (beginning with the 1.3x nerf) is that MMO is a game with very little competitive resources provided by the playerbase, that's almost impossible to get in for someone who just wants to play some ladder on his own, because there are so many hidden mechanics or rules that don't make sense and aren't written anywhere in-game (cause yea having to go to forums for guides to learn about some game mechanics is not good game design)

 

Like it's already really hard to understand that mons have latest gens movesets with additional moves because we never drop any, that they have gen6 stat boosts for a few of them, new gen abilities but not new gen moves, that Outrage is nerfed and some mons have their best moves removed to nerf them, that exceptionally Dugtrio doesn't have his gen6 stat boosts because that was too strong, that we still have gen5 type effectiveness and typing when everything else is current gen AND that Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard only work for a certain amount of turns before they wear off. Like come on what the hell is that ? 

 

There's a lot of work to make Pokemmo's unique metagame/ruleset more clear for the average player, we should avoid to add any more complicated rule if we can
 

Edited October 6, 2023 by TohnR

[gbwead]

7 minutes ago, TohnR said:

Go explain your suggestion to new players who come in and see Gallade has sharpness in a gen5 environment, feel excited to play it, and don't understand why their rolls don't match the calculator. I don't necessarily dislike your suggestion I just mean that this would not help. The real problem is that the game is absolutely impossible to understand for people who haven't been around for literal years. At least doing 40% instead of 50% power boost can be written in the ability subtext and easily understood, without having to be told by a more experienced player. Altho I agree it's awful for any comp nerd to see those random numbers which don't make any sense 

My issue with all of this (beginning with the 1.3x nerf) is that MMO is a game with very little competitive resources provided by the playerbase, that's almost impossible to get in for someone who just wants to play some ladder on his own, because there are so many hidden mechanics or rules that don't make sense and aren't written anywhere in-game (cause yea having to go to forums for guides to learn about some game mechanics is not good game design)

 

Like it's already really hard to understand that mons have latest gens movesets with additional moves because we never drop any, that they have gen6 stat boosts for a few of them, new gen abilities but not new gen moves, that Outrage is nerfed and some mons have their best moves removed to nerf them, that exceptionally Dugtrio doesn't have his gen6 stat boosts because that was too strong, that we still have gen5 type effectiveness and typing when everything else is current gen AND that Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard only work for a certain amount of turns before they wear off. Like come on what the hell is that ? 

 

There's a lot of work to make Pokemmo's unique metagame/ruleset more clear for the average player, we should avoid to add any more complicated rule if we can
 

Oh totally and that's why Sharpness should have been removed and not nerfed. It makes it impossible to understand for new players.

 

However, I feel it's easier to understand that Sharpness = Adaptability for Psycho Cut/Sacred Sword and Sharpness = Sharpness for Night Slash/Leaf Blade than Sharpness giving an unprecedented 1.4 bonus to slicing moves. That might just be me. Perhaps, players prefer the 1.4 bonus to my suggestion, but I feel most players would rather have Sharpness removed entirely.

[Xalorxiant]

will some of them be in the egg moves? what about draco meteor hydreigon?

 

[SweeTforU]

4 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Dragon Claw to BP 95

Rock Slide to 100% Accuracy

Focus Blast to 90% Accuracy

Signal Beam to BP 90

 

All recovery moves to 5 pp max. 

 

Ez. 

rock slide will still miss watch

[caioxlive13]

4 hours ago, TohnR said:

At least doing 40% instead of 50% power boost can be written in the ability subtext and easily understood

Yea, but they could also make all ability that boost power, like for example Sheer Force, says: Multiply the power of moves... While Sharpness says: Sums 50% to the power of Slicing-moves, and Adaptability says: "Stab boost is boosted from 1,5x to 2x", or "Sums 50% of the base power to Stab moves". If they can't tell the diference beetween sum and multiply, they should go back to school honestly.

Edited October 7, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Ziiiiio]

1.5 sharpness and ban life orb ＋ gallade

[TohnR]

13 hours ago, gbwead said:

Oh totally and that's why Sharpness should have been removed and not nerfed. It makes it impossible to understand for new players.

 

However, I feel it's easier to understand that Sharpness = Adaptability for Psycho Cut/Sacred Sword and Sharpness = Sharpness for Night Slash/Leaf Blade than Sharpness giving an unprecedented 1.4 bonus to slicing moves. That might just be me. Perhaps, players prefer the 1.4 bonus to my suggestion, but I feel most players would rather have Sharpness removed entirely.

100%

[pachima]

By next season we will have gb trying to input differential equations into sharpness's boost.

[gbwead]

18 hours ago, gbwead said:

Since it seems the buff is going to happen no matter what, I would like to suggest an alternative that imo would be more "clean". It would still be fucked up, but still closer to the original games.

 

In the original games, Sharpness gives a 1.5 boost to slicing moves:

• 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 70-84 (40.6 - 48.8%)
• 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 114-136 (72.6 - 86.6%)

The suggested change would give Sharpness a 1.4 boost to slicing moves:

• 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 66-78 (38.3 - 45.3%)
• 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 106-126 (67.5 - 80.2%)

 

I suggest applying the Sharpness buff as a bonus to the the stab boost. Usually stab moves get a 1.5 boost. Here stab moves affected by Sharpness would get a (1.5 + 0.5) boost, so x2 like adaptability. Non stab moves affected by Sharpness would get a (1+0.5) boost, so x1.5 like the original game Sharpness. This would give us the following calcs:

• 252+ Atk Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 62-74 (36 - 43%) / This is extremely close to the current dmg output with the x1.3 boost (35.4 - 42.4%).
• 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 114-136 (72.6 - 86.6%)

I think this way Sharpness would be authentic for Leaf Blade and Night Slash, but would still be nerfed on Sacred Sword and Psycho Cut on which the dmg output was deemed problematic. The boost would be exactly the same as the original games, but at least by applying the boost with the stab bonus Sharpness would be more "manageable" than the original game Sharpness. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer all the following options before considering my buff option or the 1.4 buff option:

1. Sharpness to be removed entirely
2. Sharpness to remain nerfed as it is (x1.3)
3. Sharpness to go back to (x1.5)

However, if Sharpness has to be buffed, I would prefer to see this buff because it's closer to the original mechanics, more balanced than a x1.4 boost imo and less messy overall.

 

For what it's worth, based on the teratype definition, my suggestion could be defined as follows:

"Slicing moves receive STAB. Slicing moves of the Sharpness user type(s) receive of x2 power boost instead of the usual x1.5."

 

For people that were concerned with the lenght or complexity of the definition, something as simple could work. And since Sharpness comes from the generation where teratype was introduced, using that specific dmg mechanic seems only fitting for a nerf/buff and would result in the same dmg output for Leaf Blade and Night Slash, but reduced dmg for Sacred Sword and Psycho Cut.

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by gbwead

[ZeknShooter]

I think this is a fine decision. come on guys. TC have putted Salamence and Lucario in UU before, obviously it didn't work haha.
Now we should cry about a test suspect on 0.1x+ on GALLADE ou, I think a cry on this is unnecesary.
Draco Meteor Hydreigon is interesting, now the meta is different and should perform differently, but lets see how it does now, thats interesting to see too.