[PvP Updates] Gen 9-2 DLC and Reverse Nerfs

[VadimEmpoleon]

Adding Draco Meteor Hydreigon doesn't make any sense even if it's a test, it was already too strong without access to Nasty Plot, it can just spam Draco Meteor and it will hit hard any mon even if it is Metagross, Magnezone, Scizor or any other steel type, Chansey and Blissey can easily be dealt with Nasty Plot. With access to Nasty Plot, Superpower, Flamethrower and a lot of other useful moves like Roost or Stealth Rock it can be at the same time too strong as a sweeper and a good utility mon. Now we will get another test (probably for a lot of time just like Gallade last time) and will have to wait until the tier is fixed again.

 

The x1.4 boost to Sharpness just like it was said before in this post is a multiplier that is not used in any other ability and it will make calculating damage harder. This ability should have just been banned in my opinion instead of doing this type of changes, if the goal was to make Gallade OU no matter what why other mons like Blaziken are not treated the same way? Why can't Blaziken get Speed Boost and get its stats and movepool nerfed so it's OU too? 

[Frag]

Making custom changes to the game to balance an ability that shouldn't have been introduced in the first place is simply unacceptable.
What's more stupid is the logic behind this, so if the pokemon drops to UU it should be buffed to remain at OU? what the fuck.

[caioxlive13]

9 minutes ago, Munya said:

Rache is surely already reading the thread.  To convince them you're going to have to prove that a 1.4x sharpness is broken enough that it will end up UBERS beyond a shadow of a doubt, no testing needed.

Even 1,5x was deemed a test, why 1,4x shouldn't be tested?

[AwaXGoku]

In my opinion, boosting sharpness to 1,4 is a bad idea. When it was annonced to us, some TC member already pointed that the nerf to 1,3 was fine and didnt need change. We got for answer that it can be reverted if it becomes busted again. However, the main problem here is that we just play with the original game aspect and this can make us go in the wrong way about tiering in the game. I dont think 1,4 buff will make gallade broken again but i personnaly dont like we have to play with something that's not pokemon.

I did not express my opinion when it got mentionned in TC chat because i dont really know how im supposed to think about it. Yes it shouldnt hurt the tier but is it good to play with the real statistic and mechanic from the original game ? i'm really not sure about that. 

[gbwead]

Dear @Rache,

I believe you are mighty and wise, so the decision to buff the Sharpness Boost from x1.3 to x1.4 is unlike you. Here are a few reasons why this decision would be imo a mistake:

 

1. Unnecessary

Players are completly fine with Gallade falling in usage in OU or remaining in Uber. There is no purpose in rocking the boat for no reason.

 

2. Inconsistent

When Wobbuffet (previously Untiered) gained Tickle, it became Uber. Devs nerfed Shadow Tag and Wobbuffet fell to untiered. 

When Gallade (previously NU) gained Sharpness, it became Uber. Devs nerfed Sharpness and Gallade remained OU.

 

Why make a custom change to Sharpness in order to buff Gallade who is already OU, but not make a custom change to Shadow Tag in order to buff Wobbuffet who is rotting in untiered? If you chose to let Wobbuffet rot in untiered, you should follow the same logic and let the chips fall where they will when it comes to Gallade. 

 

3. Inauthentic

We have a few nerfs, adjustments and changes in PokeMMO, but most of them are done with the attempt to stay true to the original games. We have a lot of abilities and items that buff dmg in this game, but there is no buff in this game that can give a 1.4 boost to anything:

• x1.5 boost: Hustle, Torrent, Blaze, Overgrow, Swarm, Choice Band, Flare Boost, Guts, Technician, etc.
• x1.3 boost: Life Orb, Sheer Force, etc.
• x1.2 boost: Expert Belt, Miracle Seed, Mystic Water, etc.
• x1.1 boost: Mucle Band, Wise Glasses, etc.

You can look at every single Pokemon game and there is no such thing as a 1.4 boost, so this would be unprecedented. This would open up the door to infinite amount of possibilities in the future when customizing nerfs and it would ultimately make the game unrecogizable. Buffing the Sharpness Boost to 1.4 would be the first step in alianeting PokeMMO for the original games.

 

4. Disrespectful

When something gets banned, nerfed, moves up, moves down, players deal with it, adapt and move on. What's done is done. However, Sharpness was just nerfed a few months ago. Why buff it right away? Why reopen this wound? This is so dangerous because we could end up with a situation where Sharpness will have to be nerfed again. Players will have to constantly readjust based on every change and this is very costly, but also all the usage gathered will be put into question everytime a change occurs. What if Sableye rises to OU during the month Sharpness gets buffed to 1.4? What if it drops right back the following month when Sharpness gets nerfed to 1.35? This makes the game unpleasant for the players and corrupts tiering data which makes the job of TC harder.

With that being said, I implore you dear @Rache to not go forward with this change.

Best Regards,
gbwead

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by gbwead

[JurassicMick]

17 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Even 1,5x was deemed a test, why 1,4x shouldn't be tested?

I think you're missing the main point. Gallade already got a suspect test at 1.5 and had some time in Ubers while they're were adjusting its ability and it finally went back after being nerfed to 1.3. It clearly doesn't have the same usage as before but it's still s solid Wallbreaker. There's also no big changes in the whole meta other than the addition of some legendaries (yes, we got some hidden abilities as well but most of those doesn't have a big impact in OU) so there's no reason or argument to justify this change. Even if they want to introduce new defensive abilities in the long run this only gonna make a mess meanwhile.

 

Also there's a technical issue about how you gonna calc this quickly which would affect how players take their decisions (unless they're using a custom tool to do their calcs)

 

So overall there's basically no reason to implement a boost that basically nobody asked for 

[Azphiel]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

In that case, can the TC members in favor of a 1.4 boost on Sharpness speak up, so they can explain themselves?

It would also be nice to hear from the TC members that are againt the 1.4 boost, so we can see both sides and not just assume the worse.

 

@Lumiere @DoubleJ @AwaXGoku @Azphiel @Huargensy @Axelgor

I expressed my disagreement with that decision in the TC chat right after the change was announced to us. I believe that the Sharpness nerf to 1.3x damage is a success and the Pokemon still has great potential in OU. I also disagree with the logic behind this decision, it does not make much sense to me.

 

I think a key factor that made the Sharpness nerf a success was that Skarmory became a reasonable switch on Sacred Sword, being able to live 2 hits + rocks which made Gallade much easier to handle for bulky teams in particular. With Sharpness buff to 1.4x, this calc becomes a roll and Skarmory becomes less reliable. And of course, it's not like only Skarmory gets affected.

 

I think that is a very unnecessary change.

[Munya]

1 hour ago, Frag said:

Making custom changes to the game to balance an ability that shouldn't have been introduced in the first place is simply unacceptable.
What's more stupid is the logic behind this, so if the pokemon drops to UU it should be buffed to remain at OU? what the fuck.

It didn't drop to UU nor does this have anything to do with it dropping to UU.

 

We are not constrained by the rules of the official games we are able to takes steps outside of it. It has been that way for a long time with various ability nerfs or withholding buffing certain moves or increasing the BP of other moves.  Or even adding in things that didn't exist in Gen 5, and 3 before it.

[Frag]

1 hour ago, Munya said:

It didn't drop to UU nor does this have anything to do with it dropping to UU.

 

What's the reason behind the buff then?? the pokemon has a solid usage, even more than magnezone and kabutops which both of them never dropped to uu, also a good and better win rate than a lot of ou mons.

 

I don't agree with making custom changes to abilities, but as Azphiel pointed above at least this one was a success, so I just can't understand the reasoning behind buffing it, if there's one.

[Ziiiiio]

7小时前，suigin 说：

Reverse the recovery PP nerfs

＋1

 

Pls reverse pp nerf

[mxdzzz]

Reverse pp nerf not needed. plz release more HA Regenerator. jaja

[galgamer]

非常好改动，使我流星群乱砸

[Axelgor]

8 hours ago, gbwead said:

In that case, can the TC members in favor of a 1.4 boost on Sharpness speak up, so they can explain themselves?

It would also be nice to hear from the TC members that are againt the 1.4 boost, so we can see both sides and not just assume the worse.

 

@Lumiere @DoubleJ @AwaXGoku @Azphiel @Huargensy @Axelgor

Adding to what Lumiere has said, this is simply a trial and will be closely monitored once the update is implemented. The change can be reversed relatively easily, however I would agree with you that it has created a challenge when trying to calculate the correct damage output.

[Ziiiiio]

I agree not to enhance Gallade, the main reason is similar to Goku's viewpoint, whether to disrupt the balance is not the most important thing.

 

If gallade is not bad, there is no reason to buff it. If it is bad, drop it to under tier, that is why we have tiers for different pokemons. To enhance it's ability because it was not achieve the desired usage? Follow the same logic can you enhance both torkoal and haxorus at the same time? Add UT to torkoal also give some extra hp to haxorus because they are too bad in OU. This overly subjective adjustment seems illogical to me.

 

Also how to calculate 1.4 sharpness on the website. I can add a life orb in the calculator when it is 1.3

 

 

 

 

[Axelgor]

7 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

I agree not to enhance Gallade, the main reason is similar to Goku's viewpoint, whether to disrupt the balance is not the most important thing.

 

If gallade is not bad, there is no reason to buff it. If it is bad, drop it to under tier, that is why we have tiers for different pokemons. To enhance it's ability because it was not achieve the desired usage? Follow the same logic can you enhance both torkoal and haxorus at the same time? Add UT to torkoal also give some extra hp to haxorus because they are too bad in OU. This overly subjective adjustment seems illogical to me.

 

Also how to calculate 1.4 sharpness on the website. I can add a life orb in the calculator when it is 1.3

 

 

 

 

The examples you’ve given are probably not the equivalent, since Sharpness in the original game is x1.5, the nerf was a deviation from this, hence there is an attempt being made to gradually move back to the norm. 
 

I’m not saying I agree with the change, however this is how I would rationalise it.

 

As for the calculation, if you multiply the base power of the move by 1.4 and change the base power on the calculator manually to what you get, you will have an accurate calc. In this case, Sacred Sword will be BP 126.

[Bertolfoso]

To calculate Sharpness boosted damage, if you're on the SV part of the calculator, you can also change Gallade's ability to Supreme Overlord and put 4 allies fainted (not annoying at all, I know)

 

[SweeTforU]

Or just calc the move power * 1.4, for example sacred sword instead of 90 base power, do 90*1.4 = 126 and calc it with 126 base power. But ye, annoying.

[TheShyn]

12 hours ago, SweeTforU said:

Ye Gallade 1.4 don't make sense plz push it back to 1.5 tyyy

+1 

[Blu3Breath]

I would also like to address the issue of the removal of defiant on the Empoleon line (and I guess to a lesser extent early bird on Shiftry, but I doubt that ability was being utilized in the same fashion). I thought the philosophy for not having uber mons was to not expend resources on something that becomes useless. Does this not also apply to physically attacking Empoleons? The whole idea was to use defiant for these sets. If the devs are so keen to be flexible on introducing and retaining whatever they want, you could argue a case for shifting defiant to the Empoleons line second ability slot (since it is currently empty). Obviously, you can still run swords dance Empoleon without defiant but the effectiveness of this set would plummet. I know this is a somewhat niche case and in the grand scheme of things this doesn't matter much but it would be nice to know if this design philosophy has changed to just "no ubers because we said so". 

[VFoxdemonn]

[ArtOfKilling]

With all honesty, since @Azphiel and @AwaXGoku expressed their disagreement with the buff decision, and while @Axelgor and @Lumiere are open to a testing phase, knowing that this decision is being forced from the devs, I would still like to hear the thoughts of @Huargensy and @DoubleJ

 

I honestly can’t blame any of the members of TC for this decision, as it has been stated in this thread that it was forced. We are waiting for a reply from @Rache on the motives behind such a decision.

Edited October 5, 2023 by ArtOfKilling

[suigin]

16 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Why can't Blaziken get Speed Boost and get its stats and movepool nerfed so it's OU too? 

This is an excellent question

The official story was that they didn't want to add stuff that could potentially make a pokemon uber because that'd remove a lot of player effort hence why, when gen 5 was being developed, the devs consulted the tc and got advice on what to remove, including Hydrei's draco, SB Blaziken, ST Gothitelle.

Obviously this changed and they no longer follow the TC's guidance and now follow Gamefreak's changes nilly willy without any second guesses, removing half of the defensive meta game without caring about player effort. So when are we getting Speed Boost Blaziken with 1.3 boosts each turn?

 

[SweeTforU]

We want speed boost blazikennnnnnnnnnn

[Luke]

Why the Gallade change? Having a Pokemon which uses physical fighting and psychic STAB moves was a great addition for OU, it was broken. It got nerfed based on the devs policy... Now it's healthy. Sure, it's not blowing teams apart like it did before but any good pilot of a decently built Gallade team will make the most out of it with 1.3x. Unnecessary change, kinda reminding me of when we added tickle to Wobbuffet and it went from Untiered -> Ubers, I can see Gallade going from OU -> Ubers because 1.4x makes its answers become a lot more shaky and reliant on living rolls.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Luke

[CanadaSorry]

Can we consider adding freeze dry for lapras only