January 2024 Movement Discussion

[Munya]

Starting off a new year, end of season cutoffs 3.75 to go down 4.75 to go up.

 

To OU from UU: 

Mandibuzz

 

To UU from OU:

Gastrodon

Raikou

 

Nothing moves into or out of NU from or to UU.

 

This is also our month of review(it starts this month, discussion may/probably will carry over into January) for existing bans. Mostly just re-assessing where everybody is at with everything with the current state of the tiers. The list that I have is in the below spoiler.

Spoiler

Removed or not buffed Moves/Abilities/Mechanics
Swords Dance Garchomp
Knock Off buff
Outrage buff

Shadow Tag nerf
Baton Pass stat passing

 

All Tiers Banlist:
Moody

 

UU Banlist:
Darmanitan
Dugtrio
Haxorus
Lucario
Kingdra
Porygon2
Shaymin
Staraptor

 

NU Banlist:
Durant
Feraligatr
Medicham
Machamp
Nidoqueen
Rhyperior
Roserade
Vaporeon
Venomoth

 

 

[gbwead]

Machamp should be removed from the BL2 list. It's still UU by usage, but if it ever falls to NU, it doesn't look broken at all. Machamp would certainly be strong in NU, but still manageable with stuff like Golbat and Slowbro around.

[RysPicz]

You guys are seriously considering knock off buff and baton pass?

[gbwead]

Just now, RysPicz said:

You guys are seriously considering knock off buff and baton pass?

It's the opposite. They are not buffing knock off and baton pass.

[Munya]

7 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

You guys are seriously considering knock off buff and baton pass?

No, its just a review of the bans to see if anything needs to come off, some of this stuff has been on the list since like 2017? Many many years at the least.  Its written into the policy(or will be if i forgot to do it) that at the end of every year now we review the list instead of just letting them rot forever never to be looked at.

 

Currently I am asking them if any of these need a serious discussion, they are voting on this for each one individually and you are all free to try and sway some minds during this phase, if something get through this phase then it can be looked at more in depth with normal discussion procedures.

[gbwead]

@Munya Shadow Tag should be on this list, right?

[Munya]

Ah yeah.

[gbwead]

44 minutes ago, Munya said:

Removed or not buffed Moves/Abilities/Mechanics

Shadow Tag nerf

Shadow Tag should return to normal and Tickle should be removed from the Wobbuffet/Wynaut species. Wobbuffet was untiered without Tickle.
It's also more authentic to the original games this way.

Edited December 27, 2023 by gbwead

[Eipott]

How are we feeling about dugtrio for UU?
 

Yes it is a strong pairing with Pory Z, but is it broken with all the stuff running around in UU? could also be an answer for Raikou.

[gbwead]

Dugtrio is just hated. There is no reason for Dugtrio to be banned in UU, but not OU. It does the same thing in both tiers. TC should be consistent and ban it in both tiers or allow it in both tiers.

[Eipott]

Also Rhyperior should be fine in NU imo.

 

The rest should stay banned.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Eipott

[Makarovs]

Dugtrio should stay far away from UU, dont even bring that discussion again.  The possibility to trap and revenge kill half of the tier should be anough reason to keep it banned, and I'm not even talking about the dugtrio+pz/other special mons problem. Its not our fault if they allow it in OU and I couldn't care less tbh, But stop using this lame excuse to want it back.

[xKato]

NU has had no balance changes for 2 months, and it seems like it will take up to 3 months with the same situation. They should at least consider reducing Zoroark or even Blaziken, which is missing in the tier.

[Imperial]

1 hour ago, Eipott said:

Also Rhyperior should be fine in NU imo.

 

The rest should stay banned.

I disagree, I feel Rhyperior would still be really strong in the tier despite its x4 weakness to water/grass. If there was any Pokemon from that list we *could* consider testing again, it would be Shaymin but looking at the sp def % rate from Seed Flare (since devs like customising rates and Shaymin is pretty much non-existent right now).

 

Porygon2 was another one I would be keen to test, but I know that it's been tested twice and banned both times.

 

2 minutes ago, xKato said:

NU has had no balance changes for 2 months, and it seems like it will take up to 3 months with the same situation. They should at least consider reducing Zoroark or even Blaziken, which is missing in the tier.

Zoroark and Blaziken didn't make the cut-off point, so they remain UU by usage.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Imperial

[Doctor]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Dugtrio is just hated. There is no reason for Dugtrio to be banned in UU, but not OU. It does the same thing in both tiers. TC should be consistent and ban it in both tiers or allow it in both tiers.

The only argument I can think against this is that it's really strong in sun teams and could cause UU sun to become more dominant. But, then again, my knowledge of UU is very limited and my opinion just comes from actually using it in OU sun, where it can trap stuff that isn't in UU like Tyranitar, which of course is huge for a weather matchup.

 

Agreed on it being excessively hated, I get how pursuit/arena trap/revenge killing in general can feel somewhat unfair/cheap but at the end of the day it's just something else to take into account when playing a matchup vs. those moves/Dugtrio. The question, again, is if it would give certain team comps (not just sun) a really strong tool that'd make them dominate.

[epicdavenport]

3 minutes ago, xKato said:

NU has had no balance changes for 2 months, and it seems like it will take up to 3 months with the same situation. They should at least consider reducing Zoroark or even Blaziken, which is missing in the tier.

Blaziken and Zoroark haven't dropped down due to usage in UU. It's nice to finally not have constant rubber banding in NU @gbwead.

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

Machamp should be removed from the BL2 list. It's still UU by usage, but if it ever falls to NU, it doesn't look broken at all. Machamp would certainly be strong in NU, but still manageable with stuff like Golbat and Slowbro around.

Slowbro seems like a solid counter but I dont feel Golbat is as consistent.

 

252 Atk Guts Machamp Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 78-92 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

I'm not against testing some of the banned mons in NU though. Electrode was kept from the tier for a while because there was fear it would be to strong and hasnt been an issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JurassicMick]

Based on NU current state I'm curious about if Nidoqueen would fit this meta. Milotic has changed things quite a bit.

[Munya]

So far the following things have been found to need no discussion, remaining banned/how they are now 100% if thats not clear.

Spoiler

Knock off buff

Baton Pass stat passing

Moody Ban

Shadowtag nerf

 

NU Bans:

Venomoth

Medicham

 

 

Dugtrio is currently waiting for one more vote, but is the only thing left that might be excluded from discussion entirely.  

[razimove]

57 minutes ago, Munya said:

So far the following things have been found to need no discussion, remaining banned/how they are now 100% if thats not clear.

  Hide contents

Knock off buff

Baton Pass stat passing

Moody Ban

Shadowtag nerf

 

NU Bans:

Venomoth

Medicham

 

 

Dugtrio is currently waiting for one more vote, but is the only thing left that might be excluded from discussion entirely.  

with this list, I assume you're missing HA Blaziken, or did you guys reconsider adding it?

[RysPicz]

18 minutes ago, razimove said:

with this list, I assume you're missing HA Blaziken, or did you guys reconsider adding it?

My guess is that devs said a hard no about that and TC has nothing to say about it. And my gut tells me I'm right

[Imperial]

I sincerely hope that now NU/UU has been the best it's been for a good while, TC don't decide to screw it up by bringing back overpowered stuff...

 

Surely there's not much to bring back down as hardly anything has changed? And as for the person who mentioned bringing Nidoqueen just because of Milotic, that's not a good enough justification IMO. It's like asking to bring back Vaporeon because we have Eelektross.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Imperial

[CaptnBaklava]

7 hours ago, Munya said:

So far the following things have been found to need no discussion, remaining banned/how they are now 100% if thats not clear.

  Hide contents

Knock off buff

Baton Pass stat passing

Moody Ban

Shadowtag nerf

 

NU Bans:

Venomoth

Medicham

 

 

Dugtrio is currently waiting for one more vote, but is the only thing left that might be excluded from discussion entirely.  

So there is discussion about SD Garchomp? Please tell me you just forgot to list it.

[Doctor]

2 hours ago, CaptnBaklava said:

So there is discussion about SD Garchomp? Please tell me you just forgot to list it.

 

reading the post explains the post

[CaptnBaklava]

1 hour ago, Doctor said:

 

reading the post explains the post

It does not. 

 

12 hours ago, Munya said:

So far the following things have been found to need no discussion, remaining banned/how they are now 100% if thats not clear.

  Hide contents

Knock off buff

Baton Pass stat passing

Moody Ban

Shadowtag nerf

 

NU Bans:

Venomoth

Medicham

 

 

Dugtrio is currently waiting for one more vote, but is the only thing left that might be excluded from discussion entirely.  

In that posts spoiler are the things that are 100% settled. I dont see SD Garchomp in here. 

[Doctor]

1 minute ago, CaptnBaklava said:

It does not. 

 

In that posts spoiler are the things that are 100% settled. I dont see SD Garchomp in here. 

Turns out I'm the one who can't read, sorry Captn o7