[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[DoubleJ]

 

What is this?

 

Well once again, everyone's favorite Pokemon to abuse has come up for discussion. This thread will allow for players and community members the opportunity to debate whether Dugtrio meets any of our ban criteria for the Over Used (OU) tier.

 

What to know?

 

Dugtrio is an enigma. Rarely used (~5-6%) but often mentioned as the root of all evil. Pairing Arena Trap with an extended movepool (thanks DLC...) it has even more options to break down opposing teams. Previously seen as a revenge killer or support, it now is used as an ace for many teams and well supported by Espeon with Magic Bounce and the various Defog and Rapid Spin users we now have access to. Simply put, slap a Focus Sash on this mole(s?) and tell it do work with any combination of moves. More often than not you'll be in a favorable position, as it currently has a 55% win rate in match making.

 

 

We know the sets, we know the damage rolls, we know the issue. Please discuss (again).

[RysPicz]

Uber support

Uncompetitive

Unhealthy

 

Select one, two or even all 3 of them and just get rid of this disgusting shit from OU for god's sake

[Whated]

Endeavor made it more obnoxious than ever.

 

OU is a priority move heavy tier and god forbid you want to play without priority moves against a dugtrio, he can claim two pokemon.

 

Limits team building, Limits archetypes, increases MU fish.

 

The guys running 3 defoggers ruined this mon for everyone. Running rock weak team with 3 defoggers and a dugtrio killing the few rock move pokemon is uncompetitive and not a show of skills. This team archetype is limiting for the tier as a whole.

 

The goal is to make as many archetypes viable in OU tier, correct?

 

As DoubleJ said, we all know the calcs and interractions. So my main point and argument is that in my opinion it limits the viable team archetypes in the OU tier while breaking the core principles of pokemon (switching).

[DoubleJ]

In my assessment, Dugtrio is just more versatile than even a couple months ago which warrants further conversation. Players are recognizing that Endeavor is a dank move and can cripple common checks that usually capitalize on Dugtrio's weaknesses (think Gyarados and Dragonite). Swords Dance, while rare, is also an outstanding option that can turn it into a sweeper if played right and with adequate support.

[caioxlive13]

3 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

In my assessment, Dugtrio is just more versatile than even a couple months ago which warrants further conversation. Players are recognizing that Endeavor is a dank move and can cripple common checks that usually capitalize on Dugtrio's weaknesses (think Gyarados and Dragonite). Swords Dance, while rare, is also an outstanding option that can turn it into a sweeper if played right and with adequate support.

People laughed at me but i was the first who said endeavor was an issue. Told you all!

Putting personal thoughs aside, this thing has to go and thanks to the new policy about nerfs we don't have to worry about the consequent nerf because no consequent nerf will happen. A s*** ton of PvE farming methods would be impacted with any change on him, and in none of those farming methods Dug outclass everything, so devs didn't had a reason to nerf it in all game. Just apply the Complex Ban for PvP OU for AT + Dugtrio and call it a day. 

Finally this mole is on the path to go away from OU and once gone, we can bring the discussion about other issues. First we would need to look about Stall + Time Limit abuse, and after that issue is solved, we can finally look at Gallade(Right now if we ban it, those stalls became out of control since no wallbreak put the common used mons in a stall in check too well like him which lead to a situation annoying in ladder but easily avoidable on non-official matches: You being able to beat the opposing team Long-term, but not in 60 minutes. If we solve stalling issue first, then stall players would abandon their team(As it's not worthy to extend the match anymore) and we can ban gallade with little to no collateral damage).

Edited May 12 by caioxlive13

[Bertolfoso]

Please do move the focus of the suspect to Arena Trap and not Dugtrio. Diglett can still do most of dugtrio's stuff since it gets endeavor and has pretty decent speed

[caioxlive13]

2 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

Please do move the focus of the suspect to Arena Trap and not Dugtrio. Diglett can still do most of dugtrio's stuff since it gets endeavor and has pretty decent speed

Digglet can only endeavor tbh. Trapinch is also harmless. The problem is dugtrio. If Digglet was in fact good, all tiers would use him(Remember: He's ellegible for all tiers since he is untiered.)

[DoubleJ]

We're going to focus on Dugtrio rather than Arena Trap (AT) in this case.

 

Diglett is arguably a better Endeavor user with less HP and yet it gets little to no play. The only OHKO Diglett can achieve is Magnezone and it runs the risk of being outsped by Choice Scarf. Too soon to argue for a blanket AT ban.

Edited May 12 by DoubleJ

[Matthzinxl]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

 If Digglet was in fact good, all tiers would use him

And they do it, in a smaller number, but happens.

I agree with bert in that 

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, Matthzinxl said:

And they do it, in a smaller number, but happens.

I agree with bert in that 

Read the rest: He can basically only endeavor and that's it. Digglet and Trapinch with AT, as said by many people before, are Harmless. The only tier digglet has a niche is Untiered(One of the few answers to Emboar), and that is not even a real tier, so who cares?

[gbwead]

4 hours ago, Bertolfoso said:

Please do move the focus of the suspect to Arena Trap and not Dugtrio. Diglett can still do most of dugtrio's stuff since it gets endeavor and has pretty decent speed

Absoutely not, this is so untrue imo. If Dugtrio gets banned, Diglett will try to take over and will fail miserably. It would not even be close to viable. Diglett has already access to Endeavor and doesn't see any usage in NU or UU, so why would it suddenly be banworthy in OU.

People hate AT so much that they will blindly believe anything that will justifty an AT ban. There is no justification or argument that can justify such a ban. There is 0 issue with AT. Dugtrio is the only pokemon with AT that is deemed problematic. Not Trapinch. Not Diglett. Only Dugtrio.

[bobliu]

Similar opinion as last discussion, dugtrio is not a broken pokemon, but it is unhealthy and toix in OU tier.

The high atk&speed, trap ability, ground type earthquake+Endeavor+sucker puch+ reversal moveset is unreasonable. 

It means with dugtrio, u can 6 vs 5, or 6 vs 4 from the game begin.

With a good defoger or Magic Bounce ability pokemon, people can protect the focus slash of dugtrio easily. And after that, dugtrio can not only easily trap&kill rock and steel type pokemon, but also other stall pokemon with helps of Endeavor move. This makes the game boring, no more predict and gaming, just simply rely on trap tactic.

[YourAngst]

So we are here once again to disscus the pokemon that dosn t need any furthuer disscusion dugtrio + arena trap is ''almost'' as uncompetitive and unhealty for our metagame as before expect this time it has gain probably the best tool it could have asked for in the name of endevor , this alone allows it to by pass checks such as gliscor , rotom wash and worst of all chansey/bliss and this alone should make it worth of a qucik complex ban insteed of opeing another thread.

 

Now there are plenty of other pokemon that can ''beat'' theyr checks and/or counter(s) but in order to do such as thing they have to undergo a drastic change in theyr identity to the point they start and lose every other common match up they would have otherwise won easely and this is the main issue they have to face, ( exp : bold volcarona who has to run away from gastro / tenta , suicunes that speed creep jolly brelooms and have to switch out of strong physcial attackers due to a massive lack in physical deffense where as a bold 252/252 suicune can stomach them ) the second issue they have to face is that they no longer fit in as many structures as they could before on top of some of them needing additional support .

 

Now when it comes to endevor dugtrio the problem is dug dosen t have to fallow any of the rules above ^ as the only thing dug trades for beaing able to beat its checks is a simple move slot this alone makes dug a lot more unhealty then it was . Best way to go about this is to complex ban dugtrio + aren trap .

 

And while here i want to adrees what bert said we should really look at digglet too and take measures now insteed of us geating a headache with this latter .

Now before anyone jumps at me for this give it some thought ,  digglet while yes it is slower and hits softer then its big bro that still works in its favor affter all the only thing it needs to do is to simply endevor whatever pokemon gives trouble to the rest of diglets team and yes slower then dugtrio but not too slow at the same time , 95 base speed its good for the current OU standards and while it does make it more manageable then 120 base speed it is still plrenty for non scarf ttar , rotom wash , gliscor (unless its a jolly max speed gliscor and even then its a speed tie ) and most importantly chansey/bliss .

 

No i don t hate arena trap that much that i want to rip it out of diglet too like some folks may belive the truth is diglet while will be harder to use then dugtrio will not fail miserably as i said above as to why diglet is not used(that much)  in NU/UU  the reason is simple and obvious in those tiers diglet dosen t have the necessary partners to do so aka the mega boosters that we have in OU volc , serp, hydra  ect . (unless we count the migthy dustox)

Best diglet has for partners are moltres and articuno while they can t boost theyr sp atk they do hit hard from the get go and appreciate a lot diglet being able to take out gigalith and audion to make way for the birds .

 

''History'' has showed us that a pokemon dosen t need to brilliant or even good in the tier it finds its self in , it only has to be good in the tier(s) above it and while i don t have /know specific exemple of this phenomena heppeing here in mmo simply think to pokemons such as forrtres and toxickroack who are not OU in most gens and yet they have a defined role in Ubers always  , even ariados in DPP has a niche in Ubers and its ariados and diglet will be the exact same here at least how i see it , i can be wrong ofc

A pokemon viability its not always  dictated by its tools (typeing , base stats , move pool ) it can be dictated by the metas it has acces to  , diglet might not have an overwhelming presence in NU/UU rigth now that dosen t mean it will be the same for OU too so if possbile comlex ban arena trap + diglet line or something like that , most important takeaway from this is that we complex ban dugtrio already

[TohnR]

Boot the mole !

[Bertolfoso]

9 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

We're going to focus on Dugtrio rather than Arena Trap (AT) in this case.

 

Diglett is arguably a better Endeavor user with less HP and yet it gets little to no play. The only OHKO Diglett can achieve is Magnezone and it runs the risk of being outsped by Choice Scarf. Too soon to argue for a blanket AT ban.

Dugtrio's better attack and speed makes it a way better pokemon than diglett, idk why i have to say that. Ohkos dont matter when you can chip chansey and many others to 15% guaranteed  

 

As you've written in the main post Dugtrio, despite being argued to be too much for OU, has still the low usage of 6%. One cannot deny there is also a small stigma for using Arena Trap teams (this is obv not an argument only an observation). People likely dont consider using an unevolved pokemon for similar reasons.

 

 

5 hours ago, gbwead said:

Absoutely not, this is so untrue imo. If Dugtrio gets banned, Diglett will try to take over and will fail miserably. It would not even be close to viable. Diglett has already access to Endeavor and doesn't see any usage in NU or UU, so why would it suddenly be banworthy in OU.

People hate AT so much that they will blindly believe anything that will justifty an AT ban. There is no justification or argument that can justify such a ban. There is 0 issue with AT. Dugtrio is the only pokemon with AT that is deemed problematic. Not Trapinch. Not Diglett. Only Dugtrio.

just cus ppl dont use stuff it doesnt mean they are not good lol diglett could def be used in lower tiers

 

 

 

 

Also side rant but these suspect tests and their threads are so useless imo, whats the point of discussing if in the end it's TC that votes? Surely the point cant be that we need to convince TC to vote x or y, they should be great players with informed opinions already. Also you cant even post replays which are the only forms of "proof" a pvp pokemon game can actually have (walls of calcs are useless without context)

[RysPicz]

3 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

just cus ppl dont use stuff it doesnt mean they are not good lol diglett could def be used in lower tiers

I spectate a lot when I'm at work afking, and... I actually saw diglett being used in lower tiers (NU) and it was as obnoxious in there, as Dug is in OU

4 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

Also side rant but these suspect tests and their threads are so useless imo, whats the point of discussing if in the end it's TC that votes? Surely the point cant be that we need to convince TC to vote x or y, they should be great players with informed opinions already. Also you cant even post replays which are the only forms of "proof" a pvp pokemon game can actually have (walls of calcs are useless without context)

This so much. Can we ask our tierlist council to voice their opinions? So far it's almost only JJ who's actively engaging into conversations with us.

[TohnR]

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

This so much. Can we ask our tierlist council to voice their opinions? So far it's almost only JJ who's actively engaging into conversations with us.

They big scared of people holding them accountable for their own decisions.
That's also why they hide who vote ban/no ban and just give the overall TC outcome 🤣

[Lumiere]

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

I spectate a lot when I'm at work afking, and... I actually saw diglett being used in lower tiers (NU) and it was as obnoxious in there, as Dug is in OU

This so much. Can we ask our tierlist council to voice their opinions? So far it's almost only JJ who's actively engaging into conversations with us.

I tried so hard to get this Pokémon / ability constantly banned for too many months and I have expressed my vote publicly on repeated occasions on various discussion channels, but if forums people need confirmation, then there is it.
I'm sorry but I think that the people who voted to ban this topic are very tired of having to explain the same thing over and over again and to spend so many time, giving examples and showing how the meta looks like (full match-up fishing) and after that, receiving vaguely made arguments with not very explained votes and we end up with the voting results that you see, and this getting repeated as a cycle each time.
I understand that each person may have a different point of view, so even if I have tried, there are still teammates who believe that this Pokémon should not be banned, they decided to open a thread in the forum again to read the opinions of the community apart from everything what we have already explained to them, so I beg you for your help, maybe it’s the opportunity to open their eyes to new perspectives! Because trust me, we tried everything. I won't reveal my teammates opinions, but if you need to know what they think, you should ask them. I’m always open to talk with every PvP player if needed and I received much feedback from the community via private messages, talking with the most active people on the PvP scene, to be sure enough of what to vote on this situation from my pov.

[Doctor]

8 hours ago, gbwead said:

Absoutely not, this is so untrue imo. If Dugtrio gets banned, Diglett will try to take over and will fail miserably. It would not even be close to viable. Diglett has already access to Endeavor and doesn't see any usage in NU or UU, so why would it suddenly be banworthy in OU.

People hate AT so much that they will blindly believe anything that will justifty an AT ban. There is no justification or argument that can justify such a ban. There is 0 issue with AT. Dugtrio is the only pokemon with AT that is deemed problematic. Not Trapinch. Not Diglett. Only Dugtrio.

252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 96-114 (46.3 - 55%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 96-114 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 248-296 (119.8 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 152-180 (82.1 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Nah, the problem is 100% Arena Trap.

[CovFefe]

This has been more delayed than world peace, can we get dug banned already? thanks

[Stokes]

 

If Dugtrio has 80 base attack again, it would be very little used in Ou.

[DoubleJ]

Just now, Stokes said:

 

If Dugtrio has 80 base attack again, it would be very little used in Ou.

It's already "very little used in OU" and unfortunately it would likely still be able to achieve what it does with 100 base attack. 

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, Stokes said:

If Dugtrio has 80 base attack again, it would be very little used in Ou.

It's attack stat doesn't matter, because it's mainly used for it's support capability (nowdays, mostly Endeavor).

Also @Lumiere I'm sorry- you're also one of few TC who talks with us, I genuinely forgot you are TC xd

[Stokes]

Thanks for the information, I didn't know that. I always believed that the purpose of dugtrio is revenge killer earthquake and stone edge

[Luke]

I want to preface this by saying this isn't an attack on the TC or Devs, I don't want to come off too strong. I am just concerned about the direction OU is heading in.

The problem stems from the PokeMMO developers having cornered themselves with a system that is neither viable nor sustainable with zero exceptions. Wobbuffet and Dugtrio should be flat out banned. These two should essentially be the poster boys for exceptions to their "always nerf, never ban" rule. Personally, I don't dislike the idea of nerfing, I think it's a cool system. However, how can you nerf Pokémon like Dugtrio or Wobbuffet, whose primary niche, usage, and functionality rely on a broken ability & a moveset which complements and accentuates it in a competitive metagame? It goes against the very word of "competitive" to attempt and keep uncompetitive by nature Pokemon in the game. The only way is to gut them completely and make them match-up fishing machines (See Wobbuffet, and the recent PSL game Azphiel played as an example) I don't think we should ALWAYS absolutely nerf, I strongly strongly believe there should be a tiny clause added to the system where if something has no reasonable nerf it should be banned for the health of PVP. In my opinion, Wobbu alongside Dugtrio fits this theoretical "clause" too. I really implore you to consider & or discuss this in TC chat @Rache @Munya

 

Also, I want to raise a question: Will we have a metagame conducive to skill in two years with the addition of 10-20 more viable Pokémon to OU, when the tier is already bursting at the seams with Pokémon to cover in the builder? I have been able to build strong teams covering pretty much everything, able to beat every major style in every single meta game before this one in PokeMMO.. And in this current meta I always feel I have to leave myself wide open to something quite popular and strong, which I have never had to do before. I wanted to raise this and potentially get some discussion about it.

 

Hydreigon, Garchomp, Wobbuffet, Gallade (which should already be banned) and soon Dugtrio would not be in the tier without nerfs, which if they were banned removes 5 threats to worry about. And arguably we would have a way healthier tier. Terrakion, Jirachi, and a few others, I imagine, will require nerfs, when they would have been banned in the default tiering system. Thus adding more Pokémon to cover and in theory 7-8 Pokémon we have artificially kept in the tier. This is (largely) unprecedented for tiering in Pokemon. In every other established tiering system, they would be banned. But our tiering system has allowed them to stay, in idea this is good for the values the devs want to project onto the game. But our tiering system is an experiment and it needs to be handled with extreme care. I do not know for certain if this will become an issue, but I strongly believe this is a big concern for the coming months & years.

 

My main point is that we should really work on adding some clauses into the "no ban rule" as it isn't sustainable without 0 exceptions. And the TC should really begin to theory with the addition of all the remaining HA's (and legendaries) down the road, is our current system & path sustainable? Because I believe a lot should be amended, reconsidered and theorised.

Edited May 13 by Luke