October-2023 Movement Discussion

[caioxlive13]

4 hours ago, ChronoRike said:

Musharna Slowbro only can check them also u can go for a dusk bold shit but 252 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 121-144 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery so isnt a safe switch

Not really, Musharna can yes tank hits from Medicham. Also Slowbro too. But one trick with Scarf, and it's over to them.

[InsufficientPylons]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Not really, Musharna can yes tank hits from Medicham. Also Slowbro too. But one trick with Scarf, and it's over to them.

thus running a mail item becomes viable to not get trick'd

[Azphiel]

I'm in favour of quickbanning Medicham and Venomoth and testing Blastoise

 

 

Medicham doesn't have any reliable switch except a few niche psychic types such as Musharna/Duosion? or perhaps Shedinja, which are all either straight up unviable or extremely weak to pursuiters which are plenty in NU (tricking them could also work). 80 Base speed is a good speedtier in NU, and as it has been mentioned above you can comfortably run an adamant nature as you don't need to tie with Blaziken who just left the tier. Tons of different sets are possible. Slowbro seems to be its best check for sure and lots of bulkyoffensive/balanced teams might be "forced" to use it, but it is no miracle solution.

 

Venomoth seems so obnoxious, I don't think NU would benefit from dropping it, it would be so good with screens potentially sweeping most offense with one quiver dance/ Ninjask can't revenge kill it, it's gone. Also, Venomoth is a sleep powder user which is one of the most disgusting moves in the game (I know it's not a proper argument but I just wanted to hate on sleep powder for a second). Gigalith and AV Magmortar are fine but that's about it. Gigalith, although unlikely, could potentially lose to 3 sleep turns bullshit (or 2 hits/miss rock blast) +gigadrain, and AV Magmortar is rock weak which is fundamentally terrible for an assault vest user. When it was tested 2 months ago I don't think the playerbase used it at the highest of its potential.

 

I'm less sure about Blastoise, it would be interesting to see. NU has things like Mantine, Lanturn and Slowking, but shell smash Blastoise might be amazing to have vs offense, its bulk would make it fairly easy to get a shell smash. Screens support could also be a thing. A lot of bulky offensive teams use Assault Vest Eelektross already, perhaps we might see a lot of physical Blastoise then. It's good that Milotic dropped too, I guess it can help a lot.

[Godhelll]

I think Venomoth was very good in his place and it's a pity to see him return to the tier.

 

Considering the pokemons that are played in the tier, there is almost nothing that really comes on Medicham, with the exception of Slowbro (and even, it can be tricked) It seems a bit complicated 

 

We will see what these changes produce on the field once that they will be effective, for the moment, I doubt reasonably that these are particularly healthy

 

14 minutes ago, Azphiel said:

I'm in favour of quickbanning Medicham and Venomoth and testing Blastoise

 

 

Medicham doesn't have any reliable switch except a few niche psychic types such as Musharna/Duosion? or perhaps Shedinja, which are all either straight up unviable or extremely weak to pursuiters which are plenty in NU (tricking them could also work). 80 Base speed is a good speedtier in NU, and as it has been mentioned above you can comfortably run an adamant nature as you don't need to tie with Blaziken who just left the tier. Tons of different sets are possible. Slowbro seems to be its best check for sure and lots of bulkyoffensive/balanced teams might be "forced" to use it, but it is no miracle solution.

 

Venomoth seems so obnoxious, I don't think NU would benefit from dropping it, it would be so good with screens potentially sweeping most offense with one quiver dance/ Ninjask can't revenge kill it, it's gone. Also, Venomoth is a sleep powder user which is one of the most disgusting moves in the game (I know it's not a proper argument but I just wanted to hate on sleep powder for a second). Gigalith and AV Magmortar are fine but that's about it. Gigalith, although unlikely, could potentially lose to 3 sleep turns bullshit (or 2 hits/miss rock blast) +gigadrain, and AV Magmortar is rock weak which is fundamentally terrible for an assault vest user. When it was tested 2 months ago I don't think the playerbase used it at the highest of its potential.

 

I'm less sure about Blastoise, it would be interesting to see. NU has things like Mantine, Lanturn and Slowking, but shell smash Blastoise might be amazing to have vs offense, its bulk would make it fairly easy to get a shell smash. Screens support could also be a thing. A lot of bulky offensive teams use Assault Vest Eelektross already, perhaps we might see a lot of physical Blastoise then. It's good that Milotic dropped too, I guess it can help a lot.

I'm sharing this point of view

[TohnR]

14 hours ago, xStarr said:

Blastoise: 100% a test. Again we have to wait and see what will be the standard set and I'm going to assume it will have to be some mixed shit with EQ for Lanturn. but def worth testing.

The thing is mixed Toise with Shell EQ Surf has to pick between HP Electric for Mantine and other waters (Milo, Slowking, Vapo) or Ice Beam for dragons and grass (Drudd, Altaria, Sceptile, Lilli ...)

Seems like a big 4MSS to have. Doesn't seem free against balanced/defensive teams, the big question being how do you revenge it, but the issue was more or less the same in UU tbh and NU has a few decent priority users as well

Edited September 26, 2023 by TohnR

[caioxlive13]

12 hours ago, InsufficientPylons said:

thus running a mail item becomes viable to not get trick'd

I'd have to disagree. Is a big deal to exchange Trick Immunity for passive recovery. And slowbro's recovery capability was hit already due to PP nerf.

 

 

========

 

And seriously, no one is talking about milotic dropping? 

[NiceRNGbro]

5 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

And seriously, no one is talking about milotic dropping? 

And what do you have to say about that? Nothing worrying, is that your concern?

 

The only thing that bothers me is NU that it will become a water park like uu sometimes

[xStarr]

2 hours ago, TohnR said:

The thing is mixed Toise with Shell EQ Surf has to pick between HP Electric for Mantine and other waters (Milo, Slowking, Vapo) or Ice Beam for dragons and grass (Drudd, Altaria, Sceptile, Lilli ...)

Seems like a big 4MSS to have. Doesn't seem free against balanced/defensive teams, the big question being how do you revenge it, but the issue was more or less the same in UU tbh and NU has a few decent priority users as well

Fax I should have been more clear relating to that Blastoise has to choose what to cover with his last two move slots after main stab Surf so I think we will have a good chance of dealing with this rather than the other two that may be dropped. 

[SweeTforU]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

I'd have to disagree. Is a big deal to exchange Trick Immunity for passive recovery. And slowbro's recovery capability was hit already due to PP nerf.

 

 

========

 

And seriously, no one is talking about milotic dropping? 

im with u on this one bro milo is a problem especially with venu gone

[FlacuSkye]

Just a quick glance over the tier and you'll realize how busted medicham will be on NU, its sheer wallbreaking potential is so strong that it will almost always guarantee a OHKO or 2HKO if the right predict is made (there's no Spiritomb in NU who can switch into any attack and just trap it). Its only reliable checks/counter  rarely ever see use in the tier, and if it forces you to run pokemon that would be completely unviable in this current metagame, creating a terrible match-up against everything else, i don't know if it's actually a good idea to let it drop. Specially when the metagame will adapt around the other 11 movement changes.

Should be quickbanned.

[Munya]

Very different mons, has priority, etc etc i get it, but I would like to remind everybody that the same thing was said about zam in the past and its sitting at 6% usage with a 44% winrate.  Can anybody say with absolute certainty that that is not the case again without a test

[FlacuSkye]

31 minutes ago, Munya said:

Very different mons, has priority, etc etc i get it, but I would like to remind everybody that the same thing was said about zam in the past and its sitting at 6% usage with a 44% winrate.  Can anybody say with absolute certainty that that is not the case again without a test

Medicham might be more problematic since not only does it have the strong psychic STAB (like Alakazam), it also has an incredible spammable move in Close Combat which shreds almost everything that tries to switch into a Psycho Cut, stronger than a non-STAB Focus Blast. Alakazam also gets checked by more common stuff, like Gigalith, Bronzor, a lot of AV mons such as Escavalier (and it can trap it too), while Medicham does not.

[epicdavenport]

1 hour ago, Munya said:

Very different mons, has priority, etc etc i get it, but I would like to remind everybody that the same thing was said about zam in the past and its sitting at 6% usage with a 44% winrate.  Can anybody say with absolute certainty that that is not the case again without a test

There a few mons like houndoom, honchkrow, Absol and skuntank that trap or easily stop with sucker punch for Alakazam. If you predict wrong on Medicham it's stab hits all 4 hard. 

[ArtOfKilling]

Okay, just to make things clear, because I don't like talking and ranting a lot, I'll try to be as clear and polite as possible, because I know some will try to pinpoint the mistakes in what I say rather than understanding my objective. The current meta in all tiers we have is at its worst since Sinnoh was introduced.

 

Sadly, instead of fixing our current issues, additional problems arise with every big update, whether we are ready for Legendaries or not, or if some Mons' hidden abilities released were justified or not. OU is a catastrophe; you only have 6 possible Mons to choose from out of 47. You are supposed to Wallbreak and Sweep the following: Weezing, Skarm, Gastro, Chansey, Sableye, Gliscor, and Amoonguss, and be ready for Serp, Volc, Dragonite, Breloom, Starmie, Scizor, Hydreigon, Conk, Mamoswine, Togekiss, and have answers for rain so you don't instantly lose to Kabutops or Kingdra. On top of that, the addition of Suicune and Raikou, and potentially Magic Guard Alakazam coming in next as well. The meta of OU is matchup fishing; balance is nonexistent, and it is extremely difficult to build a solid 3 by 3 team that can cover all of that, on top of the PP nerf. It should stop where it is.

There are a few things I would like to highlight so it's clear to everyone, which I still do not understand to this day:

 

Why do we get Gen 8/Gen 9 move pool/ability updates when we are still in Gen 5?

Why aren't some Hidden Abilities studied thoroughly from a PVP perspective before release?

Is the objective to be different, or is the ship steered in an unspecified direction?

When Legendaries/Meta-Effecting Items like Assault Gear/Heavy Duty Boots get released, does the order come from the devs or TC?

 

 

As an MMO community, TC, and Devs, we need to look at what's healthy for most game players and be proactive in preventing things from happening before unnecessary headaches occur. Let's look back at Gallade.

[RysPicz]

I'm totally on the same board as @ArtOfKilling. The meta became so atrocious I'm kinda glad I don't play anymore (it's probably healthier for me).

 

I agree with pretty much everything Art said. However, I'm thinking about going actually few steps forward instead of looking back at Gallade once again- we are at the point where all tiers are broken and OU is the absolute worst tier I have ever seen aside from VGC16. Instead of nerfing and attempting to balance, I would start bringing gamebreaking mons onto the table and think about bringing back Draco meteor Hydrei + SD Garchomp. And by gamebreaking mons I mean things like Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Victini from offensive side and the regenerator bullshit from defensive (Alo + Slowpoke evo line + Tangrowth). That's just my opinion- especially when we got several events coming up soon (anniversary + halloweed + xmas + chinese new year) which can help in distributing the mons themselves.

 

Just don't give us Lando-T yet I guess

[caioxlive13]

8 hours ago, SweeTforU said:

im with u on this one bro milo is a problem especially with venu gone

Exactly. That s*** is bulk as f***, what could potentially switch it on there? Most part of NU mons i believe that can't.

He has 202 HP, 144 Def which is further boosted by Marvel Scale. Most physical mons can't do anything to kill it.
Even eelektross with a Wild Charge has 50% chance to not 2HKO.
252+ Atk Eelektross Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 86-104 (42.5 - 51.4%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

Ok, this is tank. What about tricking some choice item on them to stop it? Well, it barely does anything, because Milotic holds Flame Orb, and depending on who trick is very risky. 

Literally the only thing that can dream on doing a ensured 2HKO is Luxray ( 252+ Atk Guts Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 134-158 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage ), and he isn't that good even on Untiered, also on NU steelix just shutdowns it, he can't do a s*** about it.

I think milotics could even go calm since most physical attackers fears scald burn anyways, and flame orb is already boosting their Def ad eternum.

Edited September 26, 2023 by caioxlive13

[epicdavenport]

Can I add with the potential of getting Entei in a few days can we just test it in NU? Not like the tier won't be able to handle it with blastoise, Gigalith, Mantine, Milotic, Slowbro/King and other mons. 

[ChronoRike]

4 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Exactly. That s*** is bulk as f***, what could potentially switch it on there? Most part of NU mons i believe that can't.

He has 202 HP, 144 Def which is further boosted by Marvel Scale. Most physical mons can't do anything to kill it.
Even eelektross with a Wild Charge has 50% chance to not 2HKO.
252+ Atk Eelektross Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 86-104 (42.5 - 51.4%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

Ok, this is tank. What about tricking some choice item on them to stop it? Well, it barely does anything, because Milotic holds Flame Orb, and depending on who trick is very risky. 

Literally the only thing that can dream on doing a ensured 2HKO is Luxray ( 252+ Atk Guts Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 134-158 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage ), and he isn't that good even on Untiered, also on NU steelix just shutdowns it, he can't do a s*** about it.

I think milotics could even go calm since most physical attackers fears scald burn anyways, and flame orb is already boosting their Def ad eternum.

Can I ask the eelek calc? Dude thunderbolt + giga deals more pressure on milo than wild charge also taking a recoil to low ur hp for nothing? U have way more stuff to low milo sceptile vile exegg etc etc etc, if u gonna say something about NU play some ladder then talk…

[xStarr]

4 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Exactly. That s*** is bulk as f***, what could potentially switch it on there? Most part of NU mons i believe that can't.

He has 202 HP, 144 Def which is further boosted by Marvel Scale. Most physical mons can't do anything to kill it.
Even eelektross with a Wild Charge has 50% chance to not 2HKO.
252+ Atk Eelektross Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 86-104 (42.5 - 51.4%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

Ok, this is tank. What about tricking some choice item on them to stop it? Well, it barely does anything, because Milotic holds Flame Orb, and depending on who trick is very risky. 

Literally the only thing that can dream on doing a ensured 2HKO is Luxray ( 252+ Atk Guts Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 134-158 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage ), and he isn't that good even on Untiered, also on NU steelix just shutdowns it, he can't do a s*** about it.

I think milotics could even go calm since most physical attackers fears scald burn anyways, and flame orb is already boosting their Def ad eternum.

1) You are overhyping Milotic. Yes its an amazing tank but its not going to be game breaking like you are describing it.

2) Why are you calcing WIld Charge Eelektross when its main set is Spatk variant?  

252+ SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 120-144 (59.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Gear Eelektross: 37-45 (19.2 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO

3) Stop

 

[YJos]

Lf nidoqueen nu 

[TohnR]

6 hours ago, epicdavenport said:

Can I add with the potential of getting Entei in a few days can we just test it in NU? Not like the tier won't be able to handle it with blastoise, Gigalith, Mantine, Milotic, Slowbro/King and other mons. 

It's going to start in OU as every mon does. And it's likely never going down lower than UU, since it's basically a better Arcanine

Best you can hope for is to get Arcanine and Jolteon in NU if Raikou/Entei end up in UU

Edited September 27, 2023 by TohnR

[Munya]

9 hours ago, YJos said:

Lf nidoqueen nu 

 

[epicdavenport]

7 hours ago, TohnR said:

It's going to start in OU as every mon does. And it's likely never going down lower than UU, since it's basically a better Arcanine

Best you can hope for is to get Arcanine and Jolteon in NU if Raikou/Entei end up in UU

Genuine question but what makes Entei that much better? Plus sides it has better bulk than Arcanine, speed and 5 higher attack as well as the rare sacred fire. But Arcanine has a far better move pool, recovery, an arguably better ability for utility and revenge killing.

[razimove]

59 minutes ago, epicdavenport said:

Genuine question but what makes Entei that much better? Plus sides it has better bulk than Arcanine, speed and 5 higher attack as well as the rare sacred fire. But Arcanine has a far better move pool, recovery, an arguably better ability for utility and revenge killing.

sacred fire is gen6, so we might not get it, but stats alone make him superior obviously, not to mention access to stone edge aswell, and for special sets access to calm mind, although I guess special will be very very niche.

[pachima]

12 minutes ago, razimove said:

sacred fire is gen6, so we might not get it, but stats alone make him superior obviously, not to mention access to stone edge aswell, and for special sets access to calm mind, although I guess special will be very very niche.

sacred fire is a gen 3? move, so it will be added here for Entei.