[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[Frag]

The thing I really don't like about arena trap is that it limits the whole tier, forcing people to having an extra answer to not get sweept by Toge or other mon after your counter dies trapped, so in high ranks we always play against the same spammed strats which becomes boring af.

 

Something simillar to Draco hydre, which made some mons and playstile really bad like shao and rain, both mons kills diversity and are unhealty.

 

Imagine starting a match and you already know you have 0% chance to win, even with a good balance team and playing perfect, arena trap is the only ability that reward people with 0 skill, they only need to know which mon to trap, nothing more.

 

[RysPicz]

3 hours ago, Zokuru said:

Trying to emulate Smogon isn't gonna solve PokeMMOs problems, Dug is doing an ADV OU-like job here, it's far from broken or unhealthy. In fact it requires skill to build with, play with and play against. Also its usage is very low, there are a lot of problems with high usage in the game right now that aren't adressed, it would be good that the tiering council take care of that instead of trying to make PokeMMO a Smogon copycat mindlessly; and I say that when I'm someone who's pretty sucessful on Smogon and have had to play countless metas with Dugtrio allowed (before its bans or ADV OU). Banning Dugtrio here would be a crazy mistake. 

  

ADV dug has no focus sash, no reversal, no attack boost, couldn't carry stealth rocks. I played every competitive generation from gen3 and up- Dugtrio was always oppressive and it requires absolutely 0 skill to use it. How can you say that it requires skill to build and play with, when all I need is knowledge which mon to trap? I'm here in MMO from almost very beginning, I saw how tiers developed and how they were played with and without some mons. Dugtrio/ Arena Trap bans were literally always healthy for the metagame. And that's coming from someone who was pretty successful in competitive PokeMMO environment (and I did win some smogtours but only in vgc16, w/e). Banning Dugtrio is a small step forward, sure, there are other problems we have but getting this one solved won't hurt.

[Zokuru]

5 hours ago, Huargensy said:

I don't know what the point of comparison is here with adv, there is no focus sash so it is more complicated to put dugtrio freely because it has a more exploitable margin of error, it has less base attack (although that is not so important), it does not have the tools to taking it onto the field as freely as there is now, and of course not having a preview of the team makes it harder for you to recognize the threat you need to eliminate. (Not to mention that you are forced to use cb so it ends up being boost bait for salamence or others). Besides, nothing there is made stronger than it really is thanks to dugtrio 

OK here, look at what you di : you ignored most of my post, and focused on the ADV argument which was a little part of it, so please answer the rest. You said I was comparing the two tiers when I wasnt, I merely said Dugtrio here was an enabler to some styles, and prevented some threats from becoming way too strong like in ADV. ( Examples Traps Ttar : Enable Shedinja / Toge, Traps Volcarona : Prevent it from being too good ). Dugtrio has a 3% usage stat in PokeMMO, it's even less than ADV.

 

I didnt say Dugtrio as the pokemon itself was the same, I said its effect are comparable. Indeed Dugtrio dosnt have Focus Sash in ADV, you know what ? It barely played Focus Sash in SM OU, DPP OU and SS OU even tho it was available.

 

Then let's review the arguments you used to say that Dugtrio is not that good in ADV but is broken on MMO :

1) "  it does not have the tools to taking it onto the field as freely as there is now " 

 

Apparently my guy never heard of Zapdos + Dugtrio, which is a basic combination in ADV aimed at using Baton Pass into Dug to trap an incoming Blissey, similarely to what Shedinja does in PokeMMO to trap Ttar at the different that if the Shedinja is forced to BP everytime because sand kills it instantly when Zapdos as the right to just click a Tbolt and trap later, or click Sub into BP to facilitate the trap.

 

2) " not having a preview of the team makes it harder for you to recognize the threat you need to eliminate" 

 

If you're a good player it's easy to guess the structure, and you know what to save  your Dugtrio for. Also you are using a trapping Pokemon THATS HIDDEN FROM YOUR OPPONENT, the non team preview favors Dugtrio easily. Again you're speaking uninformed or in bad faith.

 

3)" (Not to mention that you are forced to use cb so it ends up being boost bait for salamence or others).

18 hours ago, Huargensy said:

The worst thing is that wanting to abuse these teams is complicated, taking advantage of the momentum that dugtrio leaves is almost zero, the example I will give is gyarados or dragonite, when playing it with mandibuzz or porygon they make it impossible to take advantage of these 2

Here use your own reasoning and understand that Dugtrio players in ADV are loaded with anti Salamence ( and the likes ) measures if they teambuild correctly.

 

4) "Besides, nothing there is made stronger than it really is thanks to dugtrio "

 

ADV literally has multiple Offense styles based on Dugtrio's ability to trap key threats, as well as multiple stall styles utilising it defensively, and in all cases it's a unique niche Dugtrio has that nothing else can do, a lot of things are made stronger by Dugtrio, and a lot of things are made weaker, and like in MMO its perfectly healthy.

 

So you're completely wrong, and I like to remember you that you dodged most of my post. I hope you're not being of bad faith, that'd be bad for a TC 🙂

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

2 hours ago, RysPicz said:

  

ADV dug has no focus sash, no reversal, no attack boost, couldn't carry stealth rocks. I played every competitive generation from gen3 and up- Dugtrio was always oppressive and it requires absolutely 0 skill to use it. How can you say that it requires skill to build and play with, when all I need is knowledge which mon to trap? I'm here in MMO from almost very beginning, I saw how tiers developed and how they were played with and without some mons. Dugtrio/ Arena Trap bans were literally always healthy for the metagame. And that's coming from someone who was pretty successful in competitive PokeMMO environment (and I did win some smogtours but only in vgc16, w/e). Banning Dugtrio is a small step forward, sure, there are other problems we have but getting this one solved won't hurt.

Again missing the argument, hopefully this time it's clear enough for you. 

 

"  I played every competitive generation from gen3 and up- Dugtrio was always oppressive " Probably not to a good level since I don't know you anyway, maybe it's a skill issue.

[gbwead]

@Munya 

 

Is it possible to have a rough estimate of what TC intends to do with Dugtrio? Will this thread stay open for days, weeks, months or years? Is there an ongoing vote or an upcoming vote? 

 

If Dugtrio ends up banworthy, what are devs intending to do in order to remove Dugtrio from Uber? I think many of us fear another Sharpness fiasco and the community input would be valuable imo.

[epicdavenport]

42 minutes ago, gbwead said:

@Munya 

 

Is it possible to have a rough estimate of what TC intends to do with Dugtrio? Will this thread stay open for days, weeks, months or years? Is there an ongoing vote or an upcoming vote? 

 

If Dugtrio ends up banworthy, what are devs intending to do in order to remove Dugtrio from Uber? I think many of us fear another Sharpness fiasco and the community input would be valuable imo.

Hopefully they follow recent precedent and just ban it in singles. 

[Munya]

There is a quick ban vote going on as per policy, thanks for reminding me. Unless it gets a unanimous vote though this thread will be open for a minimum of a week.

If it ends up banned something will surely happen to either dugtrio or its ability to try and make it useable in OU, what that is I don't know at this time.  My focus is on if its even bannable as its been a topic people seem to have been afraid to touch for the longest time.

[gbwead]

16 minutes ago, Munya said:

There is a quick ban vote going on as per policy, thanks for reminding me.

I hope this is a typo because Dugtrio has been in OU for years. The option to quick ban has been out of the window for a long time. This should obviously fall into standard process, not quick ban.

[Ziiiiio]

14小时前，Huargensy 说：

searching for such specific things reflects the problem a lot

Dugtrio team player are proficient and less quantity, 850 elo player builds, 700 elo player copies. Mainly high elo player can successfully build a strong dugtrio team, the trapping core or spinner core wont easily smash by one common polular pokemon because the builder himself is exprienced player, that is what they working on when they build the dugtrio team, to think about common rock setter and common checks about sweeper they picked.

 

Gallade was nerfed because Sableye is the only specific solution BUT the relationship is still 1 vs 1. When I list NP rotom-wash could solve Togekiss+Dugtrio, you added Serp/Shedinja counters NP rotom-wash, you are expecting 1 vs 3 and this won't prove any logic about broken because this is a 6 vs 6 game. The logic is wrong to expecting 1 pokemon to destroy the whole core and it can not be specific, as I said dugtrio teambuilder are few but proficient, how is that posibble? 

 

Let's back to the team then, these 2 are most common team in OU meta.

Dugtrio usually close to a stall game style, A team with 0% winrate when they facing Dugtrio team, it have to meet these conditnions:

1. Hazzard setter lose to Dugtrio team's spinner(Skarmory, Metagross)

2. Checks to Dugtrio team's Sweeper trapped by Dugtrio.(Tyrannitar, zone)

3. Wallbreaker trapped by dugtrio.(Kabutops, Infernape)

 

A team can succesfully set rocks, or it's sweeper's check wont trapped by Dugtrio, or Wallbreaker won't trapped by dugtrio, it will be playable against Dugtrio team If one of the conditions can be met. And of course it's a 0% winrate when you can not met any of these condition. Apart from specific sets, what pokemon we can pick.

Hazzard setter: 

-Dugtrio: Catch porygon/dugtrio and set rocks

-Mix life orb Garchomp: eq+dm kills espeon, Flame 2 hits KO serp.

-UT Glisgor: has a chance to win by prediction

-Wezzing: Against to first one which is most complained, Wezzing ignore magic bounce and serp can not defog on it

 

Checks to Sweepers and wont catched by Dugtrio:

-To check Togekiss+dugtrio: Zapdos, Mamoswine, CM suicune, Brongzone, A faster CM togekiss. 

-To check Volcarona+dugtrio: Dragonite, Gyarados, AV mienshao, Chandelure.....

 

And we just got zapdos idk why there is so many people complain about facing this, specs almost win them solo......

 

All the things I listed are common in OU meta game, we can see alot already, I personally did not find any pressure to force me to run something with less usage. if searching for something unique you can find hundreds extra.

 

Lastly, some post about unheathy mu, A rain player can already see falure when opponent comes up with heavy trick room team, set rocks and trick room then conkeldorr comes up kill 3 pokemons. even it has low usage but I can suggest Ban Trick Room in OU? Because it is not worthy for me to change my team sets because of this low usage team style. The answer is no. A meta game with no "Perfect team" is heathy, because Match-up is like a Rock-paper-scissors game you will face something you never win. Compare to BW, we extend movepoul, added TP and Baton pass on alot of pokemon, Dugtrio itself is not broken, The team comes up with Dugtrio do have common way to solve, and specific way to counter.

 

[Munya]

20 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I hope this is a typo because Dugtrio has been in OU for years. The option to quick ban has been out of the window for a long time. This should obviously fall into standard process, not quick ban.

Quick ban and standard ban process has been merged into one process.  A quick ban happens when a vote during a standard ban reaches a unanimous vote and bypasses the time restrictions needed for a standard ban.  A standard ban requires at least one week of the thread being up and has a more lenient voting requirement.

[Godhelll]

It is obvious that Dugtrio is not exceptionally strong in itself, but its presence in the tier allows him, with good allies, to manage pokemons so that its partners can win without its opponent having no more response. Which, I consider, is too limiting and relatively toxic

 

The pokemon itself is not a problem, far from it, but the teams that revolve around Dugtrio do not require great technical qualities and are very efficient because Dugtrio allows them to win against the common responses of its allies

 

That's why I think it can only be a good thing that Dugtrio leaves the tier, not because of its presence alone, but because of the teams that abuse it and which are currently very common in  OU

 

 

Edited February 6 by Godhelll

[caioxlive13]

AT is usable in some metagamings so i'd surely ask to nerf Dugtrio by itself. But the problem is all metas that AT is relevant except OU, are unofficial(Untiered with Digglet(yes, digglet is usable in UT due to checking emboar) and LC with Trapinch) and by that TC has no obligation to bring them to topic when discussing the best nerf. Obligation, they can optionally still ask for a direct nerf in dugtrio. I hope TC consider the non-official metas when deciding the nerf if they ban dugtrio.

[Doctor]

First I just want to say that it's so funny how some people in here were pushing hard for absolutely broken stuff like Draco Meteor Hydreigon but apparently a 3% usage, gimmick more often than not mon is "unhealthy" for the metagame. Makes you wonder if people actually want to improve the competitive scene or they just complain about what they lose against and push for the stuff that wins them games.

 

Now, let's be honest for a moment, because this entire thread is full of half truths or just straight up lies. How exactly does Dugtrio limit teambuilding any more than any other popular threat in OU? How is it any different from considering the existance of rain teams, of Mamoswine to give an example of a solid offensive threat, of Chansey in balance and stall, etc. If your ENTIRE TEAM is weak to Dugtrio with its absolute steaming hot garbage stats, then it's probably weak to every single ground type in the game. Not to mention that, yeah, there's no such thing as a perfect team, you're not supposed to match perfectly vs every Pokémon in the tier. Speed oriented teams lose to Trick Room, double weather teams have the upper hand vs single weather, and that's FINE. It's part of the game. A 3% usage 100 base attack ground type is not breaking the entire format just because it can trap and kill one Pokémon, then maybe set up Stealth Rock and die.

 

Also, how is Dugtrio enabling other Pokémon any different from other mons filling a similar role? Tyranitar Pursuit trapping Psychics and Ghosts does the same for a lot of the teams it's involved in, Magnezone very famously is the -mag part of dragmag to get rid of steel-types. And unlike Dugtrio, those aren't wasted slots in a lot of matchups: both can hit so much more than their specific niches/targets. Those two (or other trappers/enablers) aren't automatically useless if your opponent sets up Stealth Rock, they don't automatically lose to priority moves, they aren't dead weight vs. teams they don't specifically counter or check.

 

The only argument I can see being somewhat relevant is that it has no counterplay (although it does), in the sense that it can just come into something if only to chip it for it to be put in range of a OHKO from something else. But multi-hit moves, stealth rock, u-turn from faster mons, and in general playing around it (much like you would against a Magnezone having a steel type in your team) are all options. Let's stop pretending it kills everything it traps when the reality is it's only good at trapping very specific things and sometimes it even struggles KOing them.

 

All in all, sorry, but I can't see this image of a metagame-warping, absolute broken menace some of you are trying to paint here. Similarly with stall discussions, I get the feeling that you just don't like to play vs. it and would rather get it banned than actually engage in playing around it, but that's just my subjective take on this thread, so feel free to boo at me.

[Frag]

1 hour ago, Ziiiiio said:

-Dugtrio: Catch porygon/dugtrio and set rocks

What. Most of things you said are wrong.
People often sac one of their set up mons before sending trio, which in most of cases is the best play, you will only trap trio after hes done with his job so is useless.

 

Also 99,9% trio teams are balance, defog against these teams is easy, nobody will sacrifice his trio to set rocks vs pory.

[awaLLz]

2 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

Let's back to the team then, these 2 are most common team in OU meta.

 

 

Look that teambuilding is very good if you use a Tyranitar against him.. Like Huargensy said, buuuuuuut, Dugtrio is perfect trapper and perfect counter for this one... what is the point of use a shed shell on Tyra if you are going to lose his capacity of doing more cause of his item.... and we're only talking about 1 mons, what about the others pokemon that have a limited move-sets!!!

 

 

 

 

[gbwead]

@Ziiiiio What's the Gengar set on the second Dugtrio team? I have never seen that team before.

[Ziiiiio]

46分钟前，gbwead 说：

What's the Gengar set on the second Dugtrio team? I have never seen that team before.

The current Top 1 qqqianx is using this, and many people copied. It appeared last month

 

NP shadowball gigadrain and Focusblast

Edited February 7 by Ziiiiio

[Ziiiiio]

1小时前，awaLLz 说：

Look that teambuilding is very good if you use a Tyranitar against him.. Like Huargensy said, buuuuuuut, Dugtrio is perfect trapper and perfect counter for this one... what is the point of use a shed shell on Tyra if you are going to lose his capacity of doing more cause of his item.... and we're only talking about 1 mons, what about the others pokemon that have a limited move-sets!!!

What is limited? a 3.8% usage pokemon limit you play zone or ttar? Lemme copy the same text you guys got and see if it still make sence to you.

 

Crobat @ Black Sludge  
Ability: Infiltrator  
EVs: 252 HP / 132 SpD / 124 Spe  
Timid Nature  
- Haze  
- Roost  
- Brave Bird  
- Toxic

 

A haze spd crobat, stops Serperior, NP gengar, NP Hydregon, Volcarona, CM/NP Togekiss. It is also a great threat to fighting types if player predicts right. Can we ban it? because there is no point for me to change my team set for a 1.85 usage pokemon. see how many great spa attatckers has been limited by this. 

 

 

 

[Frag]

2 hours ago, Doctor said:

Not to mention that, yeah, there's no such thing as a perfect team, you're not supposed to match perfectly vs every Pokémon in the tier. Speed oriented teams lose to Trick Room, double weather teams have the upper hand vs single weather, and that's FINE. It's part of the game. A 3% usage 100 base attack ground type is not breaking the entire format just because it can trap and kill one Pokémon, then maybe set up Stealth Rock and die.

 

Like you said, it's fine if we don't match perfectly against every single threat in the game, it is made that way, but playing well you should have a minimal chance of winning when facing a bad matchup, not an instant lose before start, and those arena trap teams have 100% chance of winning against half of the meta.

 

It's impossible to make two players play under same conditions like in chess, but at least we can close that gap.

[bobliu]

45 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

A haze spd crobat, stops Serperior, NP gengar, NP Hydregon, Volcarona, CM/NP Togekiss

If the crobat get the ability of trapping without risk, will u still think it is healthy?

[SakuyaZ]

Vote for ban based on all above discussion. 

[Ziiiiio]

20分钟前，bobliu 说：

If the crobat get the ability of trapping without risk, will u still think it is healthy?

wdym by without risk? And why a stable check to the other could be defined as Unheathy? Dugtrio born for this to do this job, I win hazzard and I gain a stable chance to trap you, that is how it works, there is a condition before it traps ttar safely. 

 

And there are too many counters can switch in to the other such Chansey swtich in to Kindra, Does chansey even need to take a second to think about stopping kingdra, is that showing any unheathy?

[gbwead]

These teams look great to farm noobs on ladder, but I don't think they are very effective in tournaments outside of countering purposes. Some teams will naturally struggle vs Dugtrio and will have no chance of winning, but honestly the same could be said about these Dugtrio teams; they also have 0 chance of winning vs Togekiss, Chandelure and other common OU threats. It's just match up fishing, not very impressive imo. At the first sign of adversity, these teams crumble because they are rigid with no flexibility. 

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by gbwead

[Scootter]

2 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

The current Top 1 qqqianx is using this, and many people copied. It appeared last month

 

NP shadowball gigadrain and Focusblast

yesterday saw them change the set to nasty plot, shadow bal, toxic spikes, and didn't show the 4th move. 

 

But besides the gar set and getting on topic, dug is certainly a compromising issue both in the builder and in game...having to second guess using things like empoleon, tar, metagross, etc. both in game and in theory is worth noting. Forcibly removing mons from a game and limiting the aspect that makes this game so intuitive (switching) is limiting how good this metagame can be. While this isn't smogon there is a reason the mon/ability was banned every generation after ADV. 

[bobliu]

 

 

Just now, Ziiiiio said:

wdym by without risk? And why a stable check to the other could be defined as Unheathy? Dugtrio born for this to do this job, I win hazzard and I gain a stable chance to trap you, that is how it works, there is a condition before it traps ttar safely. 

 

And there are too many counters can switch in to the other such Chansey swtich in to Kindra, Does chansey even need to take a second to think about stopping kingdra, is that showing any unheathy?

First, about trap and kill without risk, I mean whatever Tyran player do, the dugtrio can guarantee KO Tyran due to the trap, great move pools and high speed&attack. The tyran player have nothing to do but waiting for die. And after trap&kill, the tyran player can hardly get any advantage facing the dugtrio unlike the trapping magnezone is predictable.

 

About why I define it as unhealthy, is mainly due to the guarantee trap&kill. Imagine the magnezone with 120 speed, and don't need to carry choice scarf. Furthermore, the player experience is bad, they have no strategy to deal with the trap&kill fact since the game begin.

 

Counter is not the true reason, is about the trap bro. 

[bobliu]

22 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

wdym by without risk? And why a stable check to the other could be defined as Unheathy? Dugtrio born for this to do this job, I win hazzard and I gain a stable chance to trap you, that is how it works, there is a condition before it traps ttar safely. 

 

And there are too many counters can switch in to the other such Chansey swtich in to Kindra, Does chansey even need to take a second to think about stopping kingdra, is that showing any unheathy?

One more thing, I use the ‘without risk' is mainly because the crobat can do the trap by using the Mean Look. But what will be like, if the crobat has trapping ability, and don't need to use 1 term to trap? 

will u still think it is healthy?

Edited February 7 by bobliu