March 2024 Movement Discussion

[Ziiiiio]

9小时前，INeedHelp3000 说：

Sword dance, kill something, and get killed by something faster right after, not to mention how hard is to setup with a 68 Hp 65 def mon. He's more like a life orb attacker who some times setup against a chansey

Do I say anything about broken and unhealthy stuff? What is wrong with you lmao I am pointing out some 1.5 sharpness can do and once it nerf to 1.4 or 1.3 it wont work, you can see those damage were just enough to on-ko

 

 

[kalfff]

I would think that a wall team with alomola and audino as a typical top 10 NU point guard at the moment, would abuse the "wich" move. Seriously, first you run out of PP from your offensive moves rather than the opponent's "Wich". 16 PP for that move is exaggerated, making many who want to slow down the brain and play wall do it and have excellent results!
"Wich with a maximum of 8 PP could balance the use of this move, as you can force a PP wear by playing balanced and offensive, with 16 it is impossible to wear out those PP! 
Thank you !

 

[VelociRaptorr]

[budadeth]

All healing moves should have the same amount of PP

1 hour ago, kalfff said:

I would think that a wall team with alomola and audino as a typical top 10 NU point guard at the moment, would abuse the "wich" move. Seriously, first you run out of PP from your offensive moves rather than the opponent's "Wich". 16 PP for that move is exaggerated, making many who want to slow down the brain and play wall do it and have excellent results!
"Wich with a maximum of 8 PP could balance the use of this move, as you can force a PP wear by playing balanced and offensive, with 16 it is impossible to wear out those PP! 
Thank you !

 

 

[Godhelll]

4 hours ago, budadeth said:

All healing moves should have the same amount of PP

 

You are absolutely right, they should all have 16PPs

 

[caioxlive13]

4 hours ago, VelociRaptorr said:

Wait WHAT?

[budadeth]

1 hour ago, Godhelll said:

You are absolutely right, they should all have 16PPs

 

after the balance 9 they just forgot to nerf wish

[Godhelll]

53 minutes ago, budadeth said:

after the balance 9 they just forgot to nerf wish

I was trolling a little xD

 

But now seriously, wish was never nerfed, it stayed to 16pps and this is totally okay

Edited February 26 by Godhelll

[pachima]

On 2/26/2024 at 12:41 AM, Ziiiiio said:

In fact alot, I will just write something I remenber

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-263 (102.3 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 207-243 (96.2 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross: 192-227 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 161-191 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

Scarf ssowrd 2 hits kills Starmie 

252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 69-82 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

And ssword + shadow sneak kills Serp and Kingdra, that usually happend on AV gallade. Psycut+shadow sneak kills volcarona as well

 

As you can see it's alot and it's not done yet

 

a +2 adamant orbed wallbreaker wallbreaks. 

What was even the point here?

If anything, this shows how extremely biased the metagame and this community's mentality is towards a much more defensive gameplay to the point where they complain a wallbreaker does, in fact, break walls once set up. 

 

The only argument that could be said is no longer relevant. Sharpness shouldn't be nerfed to a random boost unused in original games. If it is too strong, it should be outright banned or at least nerfed to some common grounded value. It is not too strong. Its numbers aren't that impressive either. Period. People refusing to adapt shouldn't warrant any ban or any decision whatsoever. 

[Ziiiiio]

21小时前，kalfff 说：

I would think that a wall team with alomola and audino as a typical top 10 NU point guard at the moment, would abuse the "wich" move. Seriously, first you run out of PP from your offensive moves rather than the opponent's "Wich". 16 PP for that move is exaggerated, making many who want to slow down the brain and play wall do it and have excellent results!
"Wich with a maximum of 8 PP could balance the use of this move, as you can force a PP wear by playing balanced and offensive, with 16 it is impossible to wear out those PP! 
Thank you !

Nerf wish effects 3 tiers, Only list problem from NU does not really help

 

 

 

[Ziiiiio]

45分钟前，pachima 说：

What was even the point here?

Some range of damage that 1.5 can do and 1.4/1.3 wont, they all just reached around 2 hits ko something like that.

 

Check the comment I linked I was responding to someone

[pachima]

21 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

Some range of damage that 1.5 can do and 1.4/1.3 wont, they all just reached around 2 hits ko something like that.

 

Check the comment I linked I was responding to someone

This makes no sense considering the difference in damage between 1.4 and 1.5 is less than half of the range of a roll. 

Yes, 1.5 > 1.4. But you cannot possibly convince me a Pokemon suddenly getting a 7% damage boost jumps from not worthy discussing besides opening the pandora box to nerfing in general to borderline broken. 

[Godhelll]

1 hour ago, pachima said:

This makes no sense considering the difference in damage between 1.4 and 1.5 is less than half of the range of a roll. 

Yes, 1.5 > 1.4. But you cannot possibly convince me a Pokemon suddenly getting a 7% damage boost jumps from not worthy discussing besides opening the pandora box to nerfing in general to borderline broken. 

Yeah but you don't understand very well, it's not that it's 1.4 or 1.5, but the complete integration of the entire ability of the pokemon which has been unsuitable from the beginning.

 

And between the first nerf to 1.3 which was completely suitable, and the difference it makes since its return to 1.5, it changes a lot of things, I invite you to go and do some calculations so that you can see it by yourself. As a reminder, after the legitimate nerf of Gallade, no member of the community was consulted on the forum before the nerf to be canceled  without anybody being informed of the reason

 

And then you, we always see you talking on forum but we never see you playing ingame, how could you have an opinion that allows you to judge correctly the situation? :l

 

Your imagination is very nice but doesn't add us much in Gallade subject, moreover, the objective reasons for Gallade's first ban are obviously still all valid

Edited February 27 by Godhelll

[pachima]

20 minutes ago, Godhelll said:

Yeah but you don't understand very well, it's not that it's 1.4 or 1.5, but the complete integration of the entire ability of the pokemon which has been unsuitable from the beginning.

1.5x is its original value. Having sharpness at 1.5x is therefore expected.

 

The issue arised when they began changing basic mechanics to better fit their perception of the metagame, opening unwarranted precedents in the future no one asked for. 

 

Sharpness shouldn't have been nerfed to an arbitrary number. I agree with this. But we are beyond that now, and regardless of whether it made sense or not, we gained information upon its nerf. Sharpness was tested at 1.3x, and Gallade dropped hard, pretty much showcasing how much its fears were overblown out of proportions. Then it was tested at 1.4x. It still didn't have any negative impact in the tier, which was the only reason why Sharpness was reverted back to its original value. 

 

They shouldn't have done this, but they did, and neither do you nor I have time machines to prevent what already happened. The best thing we can do is analyze what these nerfs showcased and how relevant these nerfs are in the first place. 1.4x to 1.5x is very negligible. If the Pokemon is an issue now, it would have be an issue then, and yet it wasn't. Not even in the slightest.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Godhelll said:

As a reminder, after the legitimate nerf of Gallade, no member of the community was consulted on the forum before the nerf to be canceled  without anybody being informed of the reason

This is not a Gallade issue whatsoever. This is what happens when there is no transparency in most of their decisions regarding new stuff added into the game. This is something they apparently are willing to slowly change for the best, but this isn't a conversation to have in this thread.

 

28 minutes ago, Godhelll said:

Your imagination is very nice but doesn't add us much in Gallade subject, moreover, the objective reasons for Gallade's first ban are obviously still all valid

This can't be more objective at all. Gallade went through 2 different nerfed variants in the format. It failed to have any impact in both. None of these are suppositions, or what ifs, or yada yadas. This happened very recently, and so far no one gave me a solid enough argument as to why a 7% boost in its sharpness moves is enough to turn an overall average Pokémon into the monster some people claim it to be. 

 

You ask me to calculate. Why? Calculations are used to follow-up an argument. They aren't the argument at all, despite what some people choose to believe. 

One can give me different calculations, and yet miss the most fundamental aspect of them all.  How often can that Pokémon force the enemy giving up into that position? How often can the selected move be spammed while minimizing prediction risks? How often is that Pokémon on the field, and once it is, what are the requirements for it to be in there in the first place? And honestly, lots of other factors, because competitive Pokémon lurks deeply into a complex grey area. 

 

A bunch of calculations will never be able to answer this properly, and I really expect people to actually start using them more sparringly, or in tandem with proper arguments for them. 

 

Either way, we literally had the most objective metric for its viability, and it failed miserably at showcasing how good it should be even with a 1.4x boost. I will repeat once more. A 7% damage boost is not significant enough to turn that Pokémon into something truly problematic, therefore, if it didn't prove to be an issue then, it most likely is not an issue now. Finally, the format is even better equiped at dealing with Gallade now than it was then. We gained access to Zapdos, which even though is not the perfect answer, or whatever people like to use to feel comfortable in a game that shouldn't have them in the first place, is solid enough to control Gallade properly. 

 

 

[INeedHelp3000]

On 2/26/2024 at 1:56 AM, JurassicMick said:

Double set-up sets have been working wonders for a lot of players tho. Also you're forgetting its SpD, 115 SpD is more than enough to get a chance to setup 

The 115 SpD isn't enough to give you a chance to setup with a 65 HP. You end up being 2HKO even against some special attackers, in those scenarios Gallade work more like a magic guard Alakazam

[Godhelll]

42 minutes ago, pachima said:

1.5x is its original value. Having sharpness at 1.5x is therefore expected.

1.5 is its original value but it fits into a game and into a meta that is completely different from Pokemmo's one, that's the problem, its integration and the timing of its integration into the game were inappropriate, which is not very dramatic, it can happen to make mistakes, but for the good of the game, it seems right to correct the errors we know they are.

 

You say that Gallade's usage dropped sharply after it was nerfed, and that's true. But what's the problem with the pokemon going down in use? It's very fine like that, and even preferable rather than confronting a pokemon that happens to be ridiculously strong for the game as it currently stands.

 

Playing this pokemon requires no technique but is nevertheless ridiculously strong, and this is not good for the healthy and competitive aspect in the current state of the tier.

 

Currently, there are not enough weapons ingame to be able to leave this pokemon as it is without it harming the tier. In addition, Gallade is currently the real big problem of the tier OU, if it is corrected, it is a certainty that the tier will greatly benefit from it.

 

As was said earlier by someone else, those who don't complain about Gallade are : 

 

1. those who don't play (I even saw some players which only plays lowers tiers giving their opinion on Gallade as if they knew something while they have no idea what they're talking about, it seems that there are some people who are just looking for attention.)

2. those who abuse it

3. those who only spam a single playstyle (playing fast offenses teams with many priorities)

 

But apart from that, there are a large number of players in the community who rightly complain about the Pokémon and what its presence currently brings to the tier, because it's nothing good, although of course we would prefer it to be otherwise.

 

As I said, when Gallade went down to 1.3 it was appropriate, but going back to 1.5 isn't and is problematic for many reasons, as the damage difference is significant between these two changes and makes a difference major.

 

And regarding the concerns that Gallade brings, from my point of view, it is not just a question of opinion but indeed of facts. Above, I cited the categories of people who do not complain about Gallade, and one can decently doubt their honesty or even their overall and complete understanding of the game because some see the game with blinders and a personal point of view in relation to their unique way of playing the game, however, they refuse to consider everything as a whole. Either through dishonesty, or through lack of talent or experience, I cannot answer for them

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27 by Godhelll

[Doctor]

Dealing almost the same damage as a Guts-boosted Conkeldurr’s Close Combat without any of the drawbacks with just a Life Orb equipped is very healthy for the metagame and is indeed an underwhelming amount of damage

[Munya]

"You don't play the tier" is not an argument as you do not know what another player does or doesn't do and only pushes players away from wanting to comment on the thread, please leave these types of arguments out of the discussion.  Go after their logic/arguments, not what you think they do or don't play.  I will be removing posts that base there arguments off of these types of statements in the future.

[Godhelll]

6 minutes ago, Munya said:

"You don't play the tier" is not an argument as you do not know what another player does or doesn't do and only pushes players away from wanting to comment on the thread, please leave these types of arguments out of the discussion.  Go after their logic/arguments, not what you think they do or don't play.  I will be removing posts that base there arguments off of these types of statements in the future.

I know, It's anecdotal, I wasn't targeting anyone in particular by saying that but simply using this short idea as an example

 

It was only in order to illustrate the fact that it seems coherent to me to play in a tier before being affirmative concerning certain matters, nothing more!

 

Edited February 27 by Godhelll

[RysPicz]

22 minutes ago, Godhelll said:

I know, It's anecdotal, I wasn't targeting anyone in particular by saying that but simply using this short idea as an example

 

It was only in order to illustrate the fact that it seems coherent to me to play in a tier before being affirmative concerning certain matters, nothing more!

I used to have the same approach as you, for many years but now I think that every perspective is valuable, especially the ones you do not agree with 😉 Noone should undermine Pachi's experience and knowledge, he's ex-TC and has been playing for a very long time with a lot of successes.

 

Regarding Gallade itself- I'm just curious if there's any point for us to discuss actually? I thought that this change was in general pushed onto us by devs and TC had nothing to do with it.

[Godhelll]

10 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

I used to have the same approach as you, for many years but now I think that every perspective is valuable, especially the ones you do not agree with 😉 Noone should undermine Pachi's experience and knowledge, he's ex-TC and has been playing for a very long time with a lot of successes.

 

Regarding Gallade itself- I'm just curious if there's any point for us to discuss actually? I thought that this change was in general pushed onto us by devs and TC had nothing to do with it.

I may have been clumsy on a few occasions when trying to express myself

 

I have no particular problem with pachima and I completely agree with the idea that we all have the right to have different opinions, it's inevitable in Pokemon and it's very good like that

 

I just want the subject of Gallade to be able to be debated and kept alive so that conclusions can be drawn from it ^^

 

Because I just have the impression that the subject has been swept under the rug for some time now without things having had the opportunity to really be clarified publicly

 

 

Edited February 27 by Godhelll

[VadimEmpoleon]

Gallade was unnerfed in the same update that added the legendary birds, I guess devs may have thought Zapdos would be helpful to deal with Gallade and wanted to test it again. Since Gallade was deemed banworthy with a x1.5 Sharpness boost before the release of Zapdos I suggest discussing how Zapdos affected Gallade in the tier because it's the only thing that changed. A confirmation from devs or TC would be needed though because right now it's uncertain if Gallade can be banned again or not.

 

Personally, I would ban Sharpness from Singles as an ability that makes Gallade an Offensive Uber, it wouldn't even be a complex ban because only Gallade has this ability. Gallade would still be usable in lower tiers and Sharpness Gallade would still be present in Doubles.

Edited February 27 by VadimEmpoleon

[vaguelylistless]

23 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Gallade was unnerfed in the same update that added the legendary birds, I guess devs may have thought Zapdos would be helpful to deal with Gallade and wanted to test it again. Since Gallade was deemed banworthy with a x1.5 Sharpness boost before the release of Zapdos I suggest discussing how Zapdos affected Gallade in the tier because it's the only thing that changed. A confirmation from devs or TC would be needed though because right now it's uncertain if Gallade can be banned again or not.

 

Personally, I would ban Sharpness from Singles as an ability that makes Gallade an Offensive Uber, it wouldn't even be a complex ban because only Gallade has this ability. Gallade would still be usable in lower tiers and Sharpness Gallade would still be present in Doubles.

Unironically a good shout.

 

I mainly play NU on the side and I have always been somewhat curious about how Gallade's inclusion in current NU would shake up a few things. So, I wouldn't necessarily mind that.

 

Although, when it comes to the topic of Sharpness on Gallade, I still find it odd that the reversion back to 1.5 Sharpness in a metagame where DM drei was deemed to be too overbearing, might have been an oversight by the devs.

[epicdavenport]

2 hours ago, vaguelylistless said:

Unironically a good shout.

 

I mainly play NU on the side and I have always been somewhat curious about how Gallade's inclusion in current NU would shake up a few things. So, I wouldn't necessarily mind that.

 

Although, when it comes to the topic of Sharpness on Gallade, I still find it odd that the reversion back to 1.5 Sharpness in a metagame where DM drei was deemed to be too overbearing, might have been an oversight by the devs.

Before it got sharpness it was one of the few fighting types that could compete with Blaziken in the tier.

[caioxlive13]

On 2/27/2024 at 2:29 PM, Godhelll said:

 

As I said, when Gallade went down to 1.3 it was appropriate, but going back to 1.5 isn't and is problematic for many reasons, as the damage difference is significant between these two changes and makes a difference major.

There is where your argument flaws. If we've tested just 1,3x Sharpness and 1,5x Sharpness there would be valid. An argument could be done about rolls difference because 15% is a large chunk of difference. But we've tested 1,4x Sharpness. No one claimed it to be broken, if there was complains, were just about 1,4x Sharpness not being a good precedent and nothing else. 1,4x Sharpness Rolls has almost no difference with 1,5x Sharpness rolls, 6,7% is not a big difference to an argument be done in the first place . 

And i reiterate my previous argument: Gallade is a Wallbreak, you won't win walling it, you win outoffensing it. People can compare it with another recently banned wallbreaker, aka Draco Hydrei, arguing both can melt anything on their path, but before they does that, i've my own arguments to counter them. There is difference beetween both,
- One has Great bulk, are virtually untrappable, and their type and ability helps taking hits, alongside that 98 speed allows to outspeed a great portion of meta even without a scarf, allowing an resist berry like Haban, or choice specs, to be an item option.
- The other has a type that even being great offensively, is bad defensively, has a very weak bulk on one side and average on other, with the bulk in general being comparable with Flareon's one. On top of that: Gallade is easily trappable, and 80 speed is mid in OU: Either you use scarf and after a attack give free turns to opponent, which is dangerous on a Heavily offense metagaming, or you use other item and basically you only outspeed walls, and almost all offensive mons outspeed and can kill you depending of the attacks they have.

Edited February 29 by caioxlive13