OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[gbwead]

This metagame is trash. Ban Amoongus please.

[caioxlive13]

On 7/8/2023 at 10:51 PM, gbwead said:

This metagame is trash. Ban Amoongus please.

Even better: Bring gallade back without nerfing it. He was banned because he didn't let walls be viable, i've played some matches this season and yup, the walls remain the same thing. Only that really changed is Gliscor + Guss because gallade was the only wallbreak to counter both simultaneously, and now there is no wallbreak able to break both at same time. Or you use your wallbrekak to kill one, or the other, both are impossible now.

Edited July 16, 2023 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

19 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Even better: Bring gallade back without nerfing it. He was banned because he didn't let walls be viable, i've played some matches this season and yup, the walls remain the same thing. Only that really changed is Gliscor + Guss because gallade was the only wallbreak to counter both simultaneously.

I'm not talking to you, stop quoting me.

[Ziiiiio]

PP nerf back 

[caioxlive13]

15 days since start of the season and i'm on serious doubt if Gallade was really broken. Main argument for the ban on discussion thread was the fact that gallade break walls very well. If that's true, when gallade gets banned, wasn't supposed to we see more walls coming back on ladder? I've played 26 matches(16 wins, 8 loss and 2 matches lost by FatalOutOfMemory Error) and i've seen only 6 walls so far: Gliscor, Pelipper, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Amongus and Rotom-W. Outside of those, i haven't seen any other wall. And before someone says that i'm facing 375 elo players, i'm atm on 550, not too high but on this range, the most common teams are the teams copypasted from top ranks.

[gbwead]

1. 26 duels is an extremely small sample from which you won't be able to conclude much.
2. Ladder is for the most part offense by design because players just want to spam duels, so ofc you won't see much stall and that has nothing to do with Gallade being banned or not.
3. The main argument for Gallade getting banned was not that Gallade breaks walls well. That's just one argument and I'm pretty sure a lot of people didn't agree with that argument then or now.

 

 

[caioxlive13]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

 

1. Ladder is for the most part offense by design because players just want to spam duels, so ofc you won't see much stall and that has nothing to do with Gallade being banned or not.

That's incorrect. Before PP nerf the most common teams on this elo range was balanceds, sometimes stall, sometimes offense. After PP nerf a Offense Spam on every elo range started, because now offense is able to pressurize more easily walls that before pressurized offense a lot, not only due to PP nerf but also with the tools(aka HAs) it gained with time. I've passed on both extremes of ladder(350 and 650), ik exactly what is common on those ranges.

[RysPicz]

gb, really... just don't.

[gbwead]

i fucked up

[Luke]

I have no idea why he isn't blacklisted from the forums, I get more posts deleted than he does at this point.

[codylramey]

Is there a chance Gallade comes back? I ask for completely selfish reasons, I made one and never got a chance to use it xD I always play offense or balance so I have no commentary of the health of his presence in the meta game against stall. 

[Imperial]

1 hour ago, codylramey said:

Is there a chance Gallade comes back? I ask for completely selfish reasons, I made one and never got a chance to use it xD I always play offense or balance so I have no commentary of the health of his presence in the meta game against stall. 

Yeah, MMO doesn't officially have an ubers category, so anything which becomes uber (Gallade in this instance) will end up having some kind of nerf to it, whether that's removing Sharpness, reducing the base power of Sacred Sword or anything else appropriate.

 

Garchomp and Hydreigon were in ubers at one point, where they then had Swords Dance and Draco Meteor removed respectively before dropping back to OU. Wobbuffet was another example, nerfing it that its ability was only valid for 3 turns, etc...

[gitargy]

On 6/27/2023 at 4:33 AM, drifloo said:

thank you for the reply

just wanted to add something because i think one of the things i claimed about volc is not really represented here. i agree that the metagame has the tools to deal with volcarona now, mainly rocks and rain teams being good, but the biggest problem is how volcarona punishes building teams that want to play it safe and that can tackle more or less everything. partially because how scarce and limited its true answers are. for reference, things quoted in this post i'd argue are not really reliable volcarona answers (outside of gyarados because hp electric is not realistic)

+1 252 SpA Psychic Gem Volcarona Psychic vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mienshao: 156-184 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

even if we're accounting for fully spdef av mienshao, you're still risking a ko from a not boosting nature volc, considering that gems here are still a 1.5x boost, and this is assuming there's no sand chip and a fully hp mienshao. also, you're relying on rock slide accuracy

dragonite and gliscor drop with hp ice. just by having the weakest of u-turns on your team or just by having ttar you're already scaring dnite from entering bc if it loses multiscale then it drops with hp ice

and i'd have to disagree with volc not beating stall. i'd like to know what reliable answer volcarona has in stall that is not named blissey/chansey, because as i said volc can beat those by itself even if the sets it needs to use are unorthodox

all these teambuilding issues come from volcarona, and that's before considering that it's gonna be paired with other pokemon that you also need to beat. even if it's not top 3 usage, you want a team that can take on popular pokemon, and when you have to build a team that can win against it if it finds an opportunity to use qd, suddenly it overcomplicate things so much to the point where you're either going all out on offense or you just accept that "well, if it boosts and has this set i lose". that's the main issue i wanted to express. not much so that it's ubers worthy, because i agree with you that it's not. but rather that it makes the game so volatile and matchup-fishy that imo, it needs to get a bit undertuned, especially without heatran in the game. matter of fact, gallade was not as bad to play around as volcarona for balanced and offense imo because you had actually true answers to it that were very popular in the metagame, like scizor, a wide variety of scarf pokemon, and even pursuit tyranitar if it locked itself into psycho cut provided it was scarf gallade. i'm not gonna argue with its matchup against more defensive teams because it was definitely pretty strong against stall, but yeah. it's more about the impact volcarona has in the metagame rather than it's "brokenness" if that's a even a word

i'm not expecting too much action against it right now because it's very clear that it's not a popular pov atm. just wanted to spurr some thought about this issue that i have with it, and maybe get some conversation going about this pokemon so people can reevaluate if volcarona is really doing any good for the metagame

thanks again for the answer!

Specially Defensive Ttar tears Volcarona a new one.

0 Atk Tyranitar Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Volcarona: 264-324 (138.2 - 169.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ttar can even tank +1 Bug Buzz:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 101-120 (48.7 - 57.9%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

It won't be 2HKO unboosted:

252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 65-81 (31.4 - 39.1%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO

Granted, Ttar doesn't have the recovery to be a true wall, so it can be chipped down if it has to check Volc multiple times. But we're talking about a Pokemon that takes 50% to stealth rocks here (A move Ttar has). If an opponent has perfect hazard control against you, you're probably going to loose regardless. And if Volc doesn't have Bug Buzz, it can do nothing against Ttar.

 

This example feeds into the main reason why I don't think volc is broken, and frankly have a hard time taking your claim that it's meta-warping seriously. There are so many options that can potentially counter MOST Volc sets, that no one set Volcarona has is all that formidable. If you forgo substitute or safeguard you loose to the blobs, if you drop bug coverage you loose to Ttar, if you drop fire coverage you can't beat steels, if you drop giga drain then you can't beat grounds, drop psychic and SpD Mienshao (or Tentacruel) is an issue, and no recovery means no way to handle rocks or be tanky. You can only run 3 moves + quiver dance; any set will have several gaps. And it goes with out saying you have to provide Volc with a lot of dedicated support to reliably get it in the field in the first place. So while you are technically correct that there is no mon that is guaranteed to counter EVERY Volcarona set EVERY TIME, that is true for most great offensive pokemon. Exotic sets are a fact of life in comp, and with Volc you have to make trade-offs gaining the capability to get certain KO's in exchange for other important capabilities.

 

On 6/15/2023 at 1:24 PM, razimove said:

Just introduce Lando T, I promise it will be totally fine and our meta game wont suffer source: trust me bro, and while at it, boost outrage to 120.   (actually I think we should legit test outrage base 120)

Base 120 outrage would be interesting but only if it was removed from Chomp, Dnite, (and possibly also Mence's) move-sets.

 

In my experience, I don't think Gallade as OP as some make it out to be. Although I don't play stall, and I respect the TC's decision as it really didn't have a true wall.

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by gitargy
punctuation

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, codylramey said:

Is there a chance Gallade comes back? I ask for completely selfish reasons, I made one and never got a chance to use it xD I always play offense or balance so I have no commentary of the health of his presence in the meta game against stall. 

Only if we manage to convice TC that is not broken. I'm using as a argument, the comeback theory: If X thing is good, but gets invalidated and unusable by a Y thing, is supposed that, if the Y thing gets away for some Reason, X gets usable again. On that case, If walls are good on metagaming, but gets invalidated and unusable because of Gallade, is supposed that, if the Gallade gets banned and removed from OU, the walls become usable again. That's not the case, most walls still are very hard to be used. So the main argument for banning gallade is broken because the Season 13 proves that aren't gallade the reason to Walls not be usable, but yes the Metagaming itself making them unusable, because of the Upgrades offensives earned(Breloom technician, Nite Multiscale, Exca Moldbreaker(aka best lead of BW), etc...) and nerfs that defensives got(PP nerf for instance), and now there is no argument to let him banned, while the argument to it not be banned(The weakness he has, same as other wallbreaks that don't are remotely close to be ubers.) are still intact.

[Ziiiiio]

From a playability point of view, I think PP nerf was a bad update. Following gen9 sounds far-fetched, Because version updates will always filter out inappropriate content and do not add in the game, such as full damage knock-off for now.

 

PP nerf let some defensive pokemon could not hold as a defense core in a balance team. For example: Golbat's 8 roost could be consumed by 8 draco mentor from garchomp. Xato's 8 roost consumed by Ferrothorn's gyro ball. Mandibuzz's roost could consumed by Dragonite's 8 draco mentor or Focus blast from cm/trick room Reuniclus. Also with 8 roost+taunt, Mandibuzz still lose to chansey Seismic Toss without helmet. Finally even with helmet, Skarmory lose to Chansey in 1 vs 1 as well. That not just added the presure you stop a attaker, also quite hard to sweep the game because of limited recover moves. It brings these kind of mons do not safely check more than one attacker/hazard setter as well. That force you might need to use Golbat+Rotom in game to defog rocks from garchomp safely, so ur golbat could save some pp to check fighting types. But initially Golbat can check like conkeldorr+mix garchomp. 

 

OU added strong HAs like Regenerator/poison heal, then give a nerf to recover moves? It's a little ridiculous. This allows the defensive pokemons already under strong competition with new great HAs, and lose its competitiveness directly.

 

However, Nerf a stuff which was not strong, I think this needs to be avoided.

 

 

 

 

[caioxlive13]

I want to bring a topic: Heavy-Duty Boots. What are your thoughs about this item? IMO, if this item gets added, we need Knock Off buffed as well, or else things like Volca, Dragonite, Mence, Gyarados, would be stupidely strong on OU Metagaming and have no counters. Knock off on that scenario would be useful on metagaming so they would be a valid answer. Even with knock buffed some mons will still be broken.

I'm talking because this item was foung on game codes, sooner or later it will come to our acess. Better give our outputs about what mons will be broken with this item and they could get properly Quick-banned on day 1 instead of we suffer with it for some time, like Gallade Sharpness, that no one cared and "become a hard threat on OU" some time later.

And before someone talk, devs commonly give the changes without asking to the TC. PP nerf was the most clearly example of that.

Edited July 17, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Quinn010]

I like adding boots but priority should be slowbro and tangrowth so we can unban gallade 

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

I want to bring a topic: Heavy-Duty Boots. What are your thoughs about this item? IMO, if this item gets added, we need Knock Off buffed as well, or else things like Volca, Dragonite, Mence, Gyarados, would be stupidely strong on OU Metagaming and have no counters. Knock off on that scenario would be useful on metagaming so they would be a valid answer. Even with knock buffed some mons will still be broken.

I'm talking because this item was foung on game codes, sooner or later it will come to our acess. Better give our outputs about what mons will be broken with this item and they could get properly Quick-banned on day 1 instead of we suffer with it for some time, like Gallade Sharpness, that no one cared and "become a hard threat on OU" some time later.

And before someone talk, devs commonly give the changes without asking to the TC. PP nerf was the most clearly example of that.

 

[caioxlive13]

16 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

I like adding boots but priority should be slowbro and tangrowth so we can unban gallade 

 

They could already removed the ban, my argument is strong enough to do that:
 

Spoiler

On 7/16/2023 at 6:28 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Only if we manage to convice TC that is not broken. I'm using as a argument, the comeback theory: If X thing is good, but gets invalidated and unusable by a Y thing, is supposed that, if the Y thing gets away for some Reason, X gets usable again. On that case, If walls are good on metagaming, but gets invalidated and unusable because of Gallade, is supposed that, if the Gallade gets banned and removed from OU, the walls become usable again. That's not the case, most walls still are very hard to be used. So the main argument for banning gallade is broken because the Season 13 proves that aren't gallade the reason to Walls not be usable, but yes the Metagaming itself making them unusable, because of the Upgrades offensives earned(Breloom technician, Nite Multiscale, Exca Moldbreaker(aka best lead of BW), etc...) and nerfs that defensives got(PP nerf for instance), and now there is no argument to let him banned, while the argument to it not be banned(The weakness he has, same as other wallbreaks that don't are remotely close to be ubers.) are still intact.

Sorry but i can't see this in other way, this mon has absolutely no chance vs offense, only reason was their ability as a wallbreaker, but i can proof that was other thing and not the gallade, the reason of why walls are on worst performance, on pvp right now.

Those two would be imo a buff to defensives that would make gallade stand on banlist. The main argument to counter the ban is the weakness of defensive mons right now, we need to avoid the buffs. Even more with Slowbro being banned on 3 days probablly, due to TP + Future Sight, so it would be later a powerful tool to Stalls and Balanceds, while BO would not be able to use it since either future sight or TP, one of them would be removed.

[DoubleJ]

Chow says argument strong and we should unban. Gallade ain't coming back in its current state, sorry Gallade-supporting community. 

[caioxlive13]

5 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Chow says argument strong and we should unban. Gallade ain't coming back in its current state, sorry Gallade-supporting community. 

Can at least reveal which nerfing ideas are being on vote? If some move will be removed, or will be some stat dropped?

(Worst case is Sharpness, Best case is Sacred Sword)

[DoubleJ]

14 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Can at least reveal which nerfing ideas are being on vote? If some move will be removed, or will be some stat dropped?

(Worst case is Sharpness, Best case is Sacred Sword)

Most of those decisions are above the level of TC as they impact PvE and the storyline. We'll wait and see like the rest of y'all. 

[KeldeoCrowned]

Wish Teleport is broken, here is why
 

 

Hello, it's me again, and after some testing and playing the game, I've come across another issue:
Wish+Teleport Chansey.
 

Analysis:

Moveset:

Chansey @ Eviolite  
Ability: Natural Cure  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD  
Bold Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Wish  
- (Protect/Soft-Boiled)  
- Teleport  
- (Toxic/Seismic Toss)
 

Eviolite Chansey's bulk (357/93/189) is enough to stomach almost the entire metagame. Chansey's defensive utility
isn't new, Chansey's role as a Specially Defensive wall has been the same since RBY (Gen 1); however in Sword and Shield (Gen 8), 
Chansey got a buff: Teleport. With this move, chansey is able to generate momentum, and consequently becoming able to fit into
other archetypes outside of Stall and Fat Balance. However, it's impossible to get Teleport and Wish in the same set in 
Sword and Shield, but it's not impossible in PokeMMO. This factor majorly impacts the metagame.
 

Wish from max HP Chansey (lvl 50) heals 178 points of health, in other words, chansey can heal 100% of base 75 mons with
max hp spread, common defensive mons such as Weezing, Rotom, Ferrothorn and Skarmory get their HP completely restored after a wish (this wouldn't be a big problem, because it isn't a new thing, and also, chansey learns wish since ADV (Gen 3) and you can break
wish pass through pressurizing her hurt allies. Now with teleport, wish becomes even stronger, and it becomes useful in balance teams, in another words, Wish+TP is basically a 2-turn Lunar Dance, where you don't need to sacrifice the user.

The main way to deal with wish (Threat the pokémon that your opponent want to heal) Isn't efficient, so, to deal with it, you need to threat the wish user, however
there aren't so many things that represent a menace for Chansey, this role is limited to some strong wallbreakers or physical fighting types, but even this isn't an
efficient way to deal with it for some reasons, 1- Some of these wallbreakers dislikes being statused, so is a risky play switch into them,
2- Chansey's most popular teammates synergizes with her and cover her threats, Weezing hard walls conkeldurr, mienshao and breloom, Rotom-Wash deals with Scizor, Metagross, Infernape and Darmanitan , and this defensive core don't get easily weakened because of wish support, this is pretty strong in long games , and if you don't threat chansey with something, she can just teleport ensuring free momentum and health restore to your opponent.

 

Clarifying this post. My point isn't that Chansey is broken, is about how stupid is Wish+Teleport combo in a insane bulky pokémon such as chansey/blissey is, and it isn't an exclusive thing, in the future, when alomomola gets regenerator, PokeMMO will face an even bigger problem with Wish+Baton Pass

 

Answering possible counter-arguments
 

A- Just run taunt: This might work one time if you surprise your opp, but isn't a solid counterplay, 1- because there aren't so many taunt users in OU, and they aren't exactly a threat 2- The Wish User can just directly switch without Teleport to a check and provide him health and momentum 3- Taunt creates a 50/50, if wish user switch into the pokémon that he wants to wish, the main objective is concluded and the taunt was almost useless
 

B- Just don't give them momentum to Wish: This is almost impossible, unless if you're running 6 choice bands or 6 taunt users, Chansey's bulk is enough to stomach almost the entire metagame, even some strong physical attackers such as CB Weavile Excadrill or Garchomp can't break her with ease
 

C- When chansey use wish, she can't heal herself, so you can try to weaken her with the time: Chansey can choose if want to heal the teammates or herself with Protect/Soft-Boiled

 

So, this is my analysis, let here a comment if you disagree with some point

Thank you for reading

Writen by @KeldeoCrowned
Special thanks to @zLitium 

 

[Zokuru]

11 hours ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Wish Teleport is broken, here is why
 

 

Hello, it's me again, and after some testing and playing the game, I've come across another issue:
Wish+Teleport Chansey.
 

Analysis:

Moveset:

Chansey @ Eviolite  
Ability: Natural Cure  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD  
Bold Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Wish  
- (Protect/Soft-Boiled)  
- Teleport  
- (Toxic/Seismic Toss)
 

Eviolite Chansey's bulk (357/93/189) is enough to stomach almost the entire metagame. Chansey's defensive utility
isn't new, Chansey's role as a Specially Defensive wall has been the same since RBY (Gen 1); however in Sword and Shield (Gen 8), 
Chansey got a buff: Teleport. With this move, chansey is able to generate momentum, and consequently becoming able to fit into
other archetypes outside of Stall and Fat Balance. However, it's impossible to get Teleport and Wish in the same set in 
Sword and Shield, but it's not impossible in PokeMMO. This factor majorly impacts the metagame.
 

Wish from max HP Chansey (lvl 50) heals 178 points of health, in other words, chansey can heal 100% of base 75 mons with
max hp spread, common defensive mons such as Weezing, Rotom, Ferrothorn and Skarmory get their HP completely restored after a wish (this wouldn't be a big problem, because it isn't a new thing, and also, chansey learns wish since ADV (Gen 3) and you can break
wish pass through pressurizing her hurt allies. Now with teleport, wish becomes even stronger, and it becomes useful in balance teams, in another words, Wish+TP is basically a 2-turn Lunar Dance, where you don't need to sacrifice the user.

The main way to deal with wish (Threat the pokémon that your opponent want to heal) Isn't efficient, so, to deal with it, you need to threat the wish user, however
there aren't so many things that represent a menace for Chansey, this role is limited to some strong wallbreakers or physical fighting types, but even this isn't an
efficient way to deal with it for some reasons, 1- Some of these wallbreakers dislikes being statused, so is a risky play switch into them,
2- Chansey's most popular teammates synergizes with her and cover her threats, Weezing hard walls conkeldurr, mienshao and breloom, Rotom-Wash deals with Scizor, Metagross, Infernape and Darmanitan , and this defensive core don't get easily weakened because of wish support, this is pretty strong in long games , and if you don't threat chansey with something, she can just teleport ensuring free momentum and health restore to your opponent.

 

Clarifying this post. My point isn't that Chansey is broken, is about how stupid is Wish+Teleport combo in a insane bulky pokémon such as chansey/blissey is, and it isn't an exclusive thing, in the future, when alomomola gets regenerator, PokeMMO will face an even bigger problem with Wish+Baton Pass

 

Answering possible counter-arguments
 

A- Just run taunt: This might work one time if you surprise your opp, but isn't a solid counterplay, 1- because there aren't so many taunt users in OU, and they aren't exactly a threat 2- The Wish User can just directly switch without Teleport to a check and provide him health and momentum 3- Taunt creates a 50/50, if wish user switch into the pokémon that he wants to wish, the main objective is concluded and the taunt was almost useless
 

B- Just don't give them momentum to Wish: This is almost impossible, unless if you're running 6 choice bands or 6 taunt users, Chansey's bulk is enough to stomach almost the entire metagame, even some strong physical attackers such as CB Weavile Excadrill or Garchomp can't break her with ease
 

C- When chansey use wish, she can't heal herself, so you can try to weaken her with the time: Chansey can choose if want to heal the teammates or herself with Protect/Soft-Boiled

 

So, this is my analysis, let here a comment if you disagree with some point

Thank you for reading

Writen by @KeldeoCrowned
Special thanks to @zLitium 

 

Seconding that, WishTP Chansey is a big part of games being too long, and TP is gonna be a problem if Slowbro is added at some point. It acts as a nasty MU check by allowing a team to bypass the fundamental mechs of Pokemon, and it requires low skill to abuse.

While it is not inherently broken it has a very bad impact on the metagame and it isn't rewarding good plays, even forcing pseudo 50/50 in favor of the chansey user for no cost whatsoever.

 

Teleport itself isn't a problem, as Wish isn't one. I would suggest that Teleport cancels pending Wish, and that Future Sight should be added to this when Slowbro/king gets regenerator if Teleport is to be conserved. Otherwise just removing Teleport wouldnt hurt the game at all, this is also currently the biggest concern on releasing Slowbro's regenerator in my opinion, as well as boots for those who are wishing for it ( which I'm not, esp with Teleport in the game ).

 

I'll take advantage of this post to point that with 16 recovery PPs and Teleport being gone, while it would be a huge shift, the game can probably be fine competitvely with both new items ( loaded dice, boots ) and the best HAs (Regen in particular), but I want to stress that it's a sine qua non condition, and that it would hurt the competitive integrity of the game for sure otherwise.

[KeldeoCrowned]

7 minutes ago, Zokuru said:

Seconding that, WishTP Chansey is a big part of games being too long, and TP is gonna be a problem if Slowbro is added at some point. It acts as a nasty MU check by allowing a team to bypass the fundamental mechs of Pokemon, and it requires low skill to abuse.

While it is not inherently broken it has a very bad impact on the metagame and it isn't rewarding good plays, even forcing pseudo 50/50 in favor of the chansey user for no cost whatsoever.

 

Teleport itself isn't a problem, as Wish isn't one. I would suggest that Teleport cancels pending Wish, and that Future Sight should be added to this when Slowbro/king gets regenerator if Teleport is to be conserved. Otherwise just removing Teleport wouldnt hurt the game at all, this is also currently the biggest concern on releasing Slowbro's regenerator in my opinion, as well as boots for those who are wishing for it ( which I'm not, esp with Teleport in the game ).

 

I'll take advantage of this post to point that with 16 recovery PPs and Teleport being gone, while it would be a huge shift, the game can probably be fine competitvely with both new items ( loaded dice, boots ) and the best HAs (Regen in particular), but I want to stress that it's a sine qua non condition, and that it would hurt the competitive integrity of the game for sure otherwise.

My suggestion is do a complex ban, turning Wish+Teleport incompatible moves

[KeldeoCrowned]

Just now, KeldeoCrowned said:

My suggestion is do a complex ban, turning Wish+Teleport incompatible moves

or even do a complex ban to aim the future, Pivot+Wish being illegal or something like this (HA Alomomola will be insane in the future)