OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[caioxlive13]

15 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

serperior counters :

 

 

the classic chandelure 

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 60-71 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 52-62 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 87.9% chance to 3HKO

12 SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

the legend skarmory 

+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 152 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 94-112 (59.1 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

108+ Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(skarmo with quick claw for secure vs serperior glare if he para you outspeed dont care)

 

the magic Accelgor 

252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Accelgor: 72-86 (42.3 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

serp dont outspeed he cant +2

252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

you possible play lum berry for secure glare 

 

and the counter set up with blissy logic 

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 91-108 (25.1 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

you just use calm mind with blissy you win trust me !

 

Forgot Ninjask Acrobatics, that could OHKO any serperior without subs+glare

[Pesteavino]

Aren't dragonite and Salamance good counters to serperior? 

[Gruul]

1 hour ago, Pesteavino said:

Aren't dragonite and Salamance good counters to serperior? 

Serperior may carry Dragonpulse.

[Deploic]

Seperior feels like a fresh addition to a tier that had little to no shift for a long time. Imo we have dragon types running rampant in OU, rain being an easy wincon in tours and heavy stallers in ladder so I dont understand how the rise of a contrary mon deserves a ban. Plus its not difficult to play around Serp. I remember a lot of people wanted Conkeldurr banned but it is still in the tier and people simply learned to play around it. Banning Serp would defeat the whole purpose of introducing HA because that is all we are left with even after months of release and announcements. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Deploic

[Rychell]

1 hour ago, Deploic said:

Seperior feels like a fresh addition to a tier that had little to no shift for a long time. Imo we have dragon types running rampant in OU, rain being an easy wincon in tours and heavy stallers in ladder so I dont understand how the rise of a contrary mon deserves a ban. Plus its not difficult to play around Serp. I remember a lot of people wanted Conkeldurr banned but it is still in the tier and people simply learned to play around it. Banning Serp would defeat the whole purpose of introducing HA because that is all we are left with even after months of release and announcements. 

Ban Garchomp instead

[razimove]

4 hours ago, Deploic said:

Seperior feels like a fresh addition to a tier that had little to no shift for a long time. Imo we have dragon types running rampant in OU, rain being an easy wincon in tours and heavy stallers in ladder so I dont understand how the rise of a contrary mon deserves a ban. Plus its not difficult to play around Serp. I remember a lot of people wanted Conkeldurr banned but it is still in the tier and people simply learned to play around it. Banning Serp would defeat the whole purpose of introducing HA because that is all we are left with even after months of release and announcements. 

rain, easy win con? Vs clueless people, sure, and how's that relevant in any aspect?

[RysPicz]

I think the main reason why Serperior is a problem, is the cost of breeding one. Making a 5x31 Timid Serperior, movesetting it, ppmaxing and selecting the hidden ability is a cost of around 3m, which is enough to get at least 4 mons with 5x30-31. Not to mention the time to breed it, EV and level.

 

Another problem is that Serp's main counters in original metagame are either not present or do not have the necessary tools (thus are not viable enough to use them on a larger scale) to win against it- we do not have Heatran, Moltres, Victini, or Tornadus-T, while Amoonguss does not have access to Regenerator. We even lack the typical revenge killers such as magic guard Alakazam. We are left with blanket special def checks like Chansey or Unaware Clefable or offensive switch ins like Volcarona and Weavile (both of which get crippled by Glare).

 

I don't want to voice myself about this metagame in MMO as I haven't played it yet, but I did play in a gen6 meta quite a lot where Serp was frequently used and it was totally fine- mainly because there were enough tools to handle it. Tools which we do not have here, so I can totally understand where this discussion is coming from.

[gbwead]

Give us tools or ban serperior plz

[Luke]

7 hours ago, Deploic said:

Seperior feels like a fresh addition to a tier that had little to no shift for a long time. Imo we have dragon types running rampant in OU, rain being an easy wincon in tours and heavy stallers in ladder so I dont understand how the rise of a contrary mon deserves a ban. Plus its not difficult to play around Serp. I remember a lot of people wanted Conkeldurr banned but it is still in the tier and people simply learned to play around it. Banning Serp would defeat the whole purpose of introducing HA because that is all we are left with even after months of release and announcements. 

Can you please list the ways to play around it? If it isn't so difficult you surely should be able to come up with some? Because pretty much the only one I know right now is chansey teleport + a faster revenge killer in the back.  All the offensive checks hate glare, and it really isn't uncommon to click glare to spam some para's off to conserve the 8pp it abuses. To me it feels like another Garchomp SD (trying to make you conform to a certain playstyle) which in my opinion is the sign of a very unhealthy metagame. 

[CHUCKunso]

2 hours ago, Lvkee said:

Can you please list the ways to play around it? If it isn't so difficult you surely should be able to come up with some? Because pretty much the only one I know right now is chansey teleport + a faster revenge killer in the back.  All the offensive checks hate glare, and it really isn't uncommon to click glare to spam some para's off to conserve the 8pp it abuses. To me it feels like another Garchomp SD (trying to make you conform to a certain playstyle) which in my opinion is the sign of a very unhealthy metagame. 

Imo Serp makes the meta game a lot more healthy compared to before. I never had a problem with Conk or Chomp, my main concern in OU is legit Wash when it comes to a healthy meta - and Serp hinders Wash. My pov on Wash is something I can share if people are curious but that's not the matter here I guess. I'd argue that the evasion boost on Defog might be a bit of a problem because it can realistically stop RKing, which might be an issue since we are lacking ways to handle it to some(!) extend and giving it an evasion boost certainly does not help. I don't think it's more disruptive than Conk or other high threat mons in the tier (w/o evasion) but rather helps the meta to some extend tho. And when we are talking about ways to handle it there are more than just chansey tp + RK. Sure glare is something that helps against stuff like Volca but there are more options to consider than just Volca (certain Scizor sets, Venusaur, Roserade) and I don't think we have to talk about the options for RK as those are quite plenty.

Edited September 15, 2022 by CHUCKunso

[Quilachy]

Guys You have some problems with serperior? My favorite seperior's counter is arcanine u can beat it, You can join to a leaf storm and attack it back with flamethower and extreme speed, also dragón pulse do 70%dmg by my own practice.

[Havsha]

Im still struggling to see how you all say we dont already have the tools to deal with Serp. (I know Legendaries and more HAs will give us better tools, but the ones we have aren't all too bad).

Defensively we have the bats that can switch in, U-turn to break sub, or threaten with Brave Bird (Or if youre so scared of recoil, then theres always U-Turn, Aerial Ace, Sludge Bomb, etc), Chansey/Bliss/P2 with teleport, Togekiss (haven't calced yet, but from experience it usually works) and Unaware Clef (Which should always beat Serp 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 60-72 (29.7 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.) (Clef's always been a pretty staple mon in later gens, yeah it doesnt have fairy typing yet, but still viable)

Offensively there's Volc, Weavile, Chandelure, Toge, Scarf Mon, and probably a bunch more I've left out.

Most of the arguments I hear against these answers are all related to the the glare set which has a few issues as far as im concerned. Firstly it is rng reliant, paras can let Serp beat its checks, but thats not a unique trait to Serp. Secondly it limits Serps movepool to two attacks (unless you want glare and 3 attacks, in which case para fishing isn't a viable option) if you go HP fire then dragons can beat Serp, and if you run Dragon Pulse then its walled by ferro and scizor. And I guess finally, a mon like Volc getting para'd isnt as game breaking as some of yall are saying, you can run heal bell support if you're that worried about it.

 

Regarding the issue about how expensive Serp is to make, thats not a PvP balance issue, thats a economy balance issue that is creating unnecessary barrier to pvp, which is bad, but I dont know if its relevant to the debate, but maybe im wrong.

[caioxlive13]

18 hours ago, CHUCKunso said:

 I'd argue that the evasion boost on Defog might be a bit of a problem 

I don't agree. I need to remember something, before HA we only have two grass-types on OU: Rotom-Mow and Breloom . Both are uncommon and with HA become more uncommon. So you don't have anything to hit rotom superefectivelly on 90% of cases with a stab, that should be enough to kill without problem, and if you don't have taunt(Example: Your team are a HO Screens and your suicide lead is the only with taunt), when rotom-w switch-in it can defog for free, removing the screens and leaving your mons vulnerable. Now with this Evasion boost, we have more tools to punish Defog users. With Contrary Serperior and Espeon Magic Bounce, this type of team can keep the screeens and this could basically bring to this team a new life. I only see the problem on Doubles Metagaming, when you can self-aim defog, but this can be resolved basically modifying defog and make it unable to target your own mon.

Edited September 16, 2022 by caioxlive13

[caioxlive13]

58 minutes ago, Havsha said:

 if you go HP fire then dragons can beat Serp, and if you run Dragon Pulse then its walled by ferro and scizor.

Running both + leaf storm + glare?

[gbwead]

I would like to know why a discussion thread was opened for UU Dugtrio, but no discussion thread was opened for OU Dugtrio.

I would like to also know why there has been no discussion thread opened for OU Serperior.

[Deploic]

On 9/16/2022 at 1:57 AM, Lvkee said:

Can you please list the ways to play around it? If it isn't so difficult you surely should be able to come up with some? Because pretty much the only one I know right now is chansey teleport + a faster revenge killer in the back.  All the offensive checks hate glare, and it really isn't uncommon to click glare to spam some para's off to conserve the 8pp it abuses. To me it feels like another Garchomp SD (trying to make you conform to a certain playstyle) which in my opinion is the sign of a very unhealthy metagame. 

Sash, Scarf or Priority moves, or a combination of the three. I dont play stall so I cannot say what to do in that case but this is my go to for balanced and ho teams. 

[razimove]

18 hours ago, Deploic said:

Sash, Scarf or Priority moves, or a combination of the three. I dont play stall so I cannot say what to do in that case but this is my go to for balanced and ho teams. 

so no real answer, relying on non sub variant, no rocks on the field, no evasion boost, no paralyze, and serp not being boosted or having something like dragon pulse to hit you with, neat.

[Deploic]

5 hours ago, razimove said:

so no real answer, relying on non sub variant, no rocks on the field, no evasion boost, no paralyze, and serp not being boosted or having something like dragon pulse to hit you with, neat.

You are making it sound like Serp is an absolute wincon, most players struggle to keep the serp itself healthy to always switch in. If there is an answer to something as broken as rain Idk why youd think nothing checks serp.

[Luke]

I have no idea why it double posted lol

Edited September 24, 2022 by Lvkee

[Luke]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:36 PM, Deploic said:

You are making it sound like Serp is an absolute wincon

In a metagame where it has mainly only checks, and barely any counters.. it is..

 

On 9/18/2022 at 8:36 PM, Deploic said:

most players struggle to keep the serp itself healthy to always switch in

This is the fault of poor utilisation by lower skilled players. I have seen so many high level players & average / standard players abuse the hell out of it. Its high win rate for its usage percentage is reflective of this.

 

On 9/18/2022 at 8:36 PM, Deploic said:

If there is an answer to something as broken as rain Idk why youd think nothing checks serp.

Rain is absolutely, categorically not broken. Not even remotely close, not even in the realm of broken. If 10 is broken and 0 is trash, rain is like a 6 at best.

 

On 9/17/2022 at 8:49 PM, Deploic said:

Sash, Scarf or Priority moves, or a combination of the three. I dont play stall so I cannot say what to do in that case but this is my go to for balanced and ho teams. 

Literally almost all relevant sash users, scarf users, or priority abusers hate para. And if they don't they hate leaf storm. It's not like they are gonna click leaf storm or glare then stay in and sack it.. I am not really using stall that much in this meta and I still find serp a huge pain in the ass. I am not specifically talking about stall here. Please provide named examples and calcs instead of listing off vague soft checks.. Because nothing you said disproves my statement that there is literally only 1 reliable method of stopping Serp right now: Chansey teleport + a fast revenge killer in the back, anything else you are risking being crippled by glare or decimated by leaf storm (not even mentioning the usage of taunt / leech seed which are very good options for it)

Edited September 24, 2022 by Lvkee
im stupid & don't know how basic punctuation works

[Deploic]

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 AM, Lvkee said:

In a metagame where it has mainly only checks, and barely any counters.. it is..

Same can be said for Reuni then, with one setup it can be heavily abused. 

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 AM, Lvkee said:

This is the fault of poor utilisation by lower skilled players

And that is why Serp wont get banned.

 

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 AM, Lvkee said:

I have seen so many high level players abuse the hell out of it.

"High level players" have a tendency to abuse a lot of things, that is a whole different arguement and more skill based rather than an unbalanced meta. 

 

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 AM, Lvkee said:

It's high win rate for it's usage percentage is reflective of this.

The highest win rate of a mon in ou is Shedninja, which is ironically the least used mon too but that really proves the use of intellect and skill rather than a broken ability. Empoleon and Weezing have higher win rates too and Golbat still has one of the highest win rates for months now and it is used as a Serp check so it is getting the job done right? Also Serp isnt in the top 10 most used mons, hence people arent running around spamming Serp. 

 

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 AM, Lvkee said:

categorically not broken.

A part of every team is built around the fact that it needs to counter Rain in OU, that is the effect rain has my statement is simple - if people found ways around rain then I do not think Serp is op than rain. 

 

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 AM, Lvkee said:

Please provide named examples and calcs

252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 170-204 (108.2 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Dragonite Fire Blast vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 143-169 (91 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 140-165 (89.1 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

+ Pairing up with priority moves like BP, ES, IS and Mach + Hail/Sand + Hazard damage is more thane enough to get the job done without even using Chansey. I cannot introduce a whole gameplay to prove you a point, but honestly Sepr isnt broken at all. 

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, Lvkee said:

I am not specifically talking about stall here. Please provide named examples and calcs instead of listing off vague soft checks.. Because nothing you said disproves my statement that there is literally only 1 reliable method of stopping Serp right now: Chansey teleport + a fast revenge killer in the back, anything else you are risking being crippled by glare or decimated by leaf storm (not even mentioning the usage of taunt / leech seed which are very good options for it)

Chansey/Blissey Teleport + Faster RK is a thing that most part of the teams have. Also, my hyper offense with screens team doesn't have big trouble vs Serperior. In fact, i have more difficulties vs especifically rain

[gbwead]

23 minutes ago, Deploic said:

252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 170-204 (108.2 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Dragonite Fire Blast vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 143-169 (91 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 140-165 (89.1 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

+ Pairing up with priority moves like BP, ES, IS and Mach + Hail/Sand + Hazard damage is more thane enough to get the job done without even using Chansey. I cannot introduce a whole gameplay to prove you a point, but honestly Sepr isnt broken at all. 

I don't understand these calcs.

 

Abomasnow:

Abomasnow gets OHKO by Serperior HP Fire, and HP Fire is very very very very common. According to your calc, Abomasnow is not a +Speed Nature which mean even as a Scarf user it would get outsped by Serperior. Your Abomasnow doesn't switch into Serperior or revenge kill a Serperior behind a Sub or at +2.

 

Dragonite:

1. Your calcs are not even guaranteed KO.
2. Your calcs involve moves with bad accuracy vs a mon that has a good chance of running substitute.
3. Your calcs involve life orb which makes Dragonite very susceptible to chip dmg, so easily in range of Dragon Pulse Serperior.
4. Breaking a sub with Draco Meteor is an atrocious position.
5. Dragonite with ESpeed + Spatk moves is likely to have a -def or -spdef nature which also makes it more likely to be in range of Dragon Pulse Serperior.

 

[Requi]

Thoughts on Espeon?

[Huargensy]

1 hour ago, Requi said:

Thoughts on Espeon?

It's not a big deal, maybe the problem with him is based more on pairing him with dugtrio