OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[caioxlive13]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:01 PM, Ziiiiio said:

Raikou is on his way to the UU, then banned

I'm not sure of that. The only things 100% counter of it, are Gastrodon and Chansey with Seismic toss. Blissey Seismic toss too but tbh, who runs blissey with that? People uses Ice Beam/Flamethrower and that loses to raikou(Idk why people use Blissey and Chansey on OU, it's hard the choice beetween Extra bulk or a Itemslot? Knock off don't even exist(not literally, it are present but who uses it when it had 20 BP?) and Trick is not that common, why the ladder don't let one drop to UU?)

However, Raikou is good because it can force a zugzwang.
If you're running gastrodon, you're not running Jellicent, and thus you're making yourself vulnerable to Suicune. 
If you're running Chansey Seismic, then it can't do a s*** vs a Ghost Type. Some Subs variants of Chandelure, and Gengar, can setup in front of a mon that supposedly walls them.
Raikou is good on OU not due to it be good by himself, but because you has to run some answers to it and those answers weaken your team in some way that can be exploited.


====================================================

Also, how we will keep the tiering from now on? Now we have again the case of mons not having their usage being truly represented: Suicune and Raikou are both limited by them being super-rare to find, and each one of us can get 1 every 3 months. They can do those things for other legendarys(Moltres/Zapdos/Articuno roaming on Kanto is not a bad idea tbh.)

Edited September 4, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Ziiiiio]

7小时前，caioxlive13 说：

I'm not sure of that. The only things 100% counter of it

Apart from something you mentioned, you can try Spd hippowdon, nidoqueen, Shedinja, dugdrio, Chansey, AV mienshao, ttar...... Just alot

 

Raikou is playable due to it's unique move pool and quite good spa/spd. But Raikou and Jolteon have a strong competition relationship, lose speed to get a fighting move sounds cool, it beats Mamos and excadrill which many player use these to stop Electrc+Ice move. But 115 speed let Raikou slower than dugdrio, weavile, scarf ttar, tie speed with Starmie. Jolteon get faster speed and use baton pass run away. Finally Raikou has a useless ability.

 

Imo Raikou = Jolteon, They are different, but the strength is consistent, both have serious shortcoming. So I think Raikou is on it's way to UU just like Jolteon xd

 

 

[KeldeoCrowned]

4 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

Apart from something you mentioned, you can try Spd hippowdon, nidoqueen, Shedinja, dugdrio, Chansey, AV mienshao, ttar...... Just alot

 

Raikou is playable due to it's unique move pool and quite good spa/spd. But Raikou and Jolteon have a strong competition relationship, lose speed to get a fighting move sounds cool, it beats Mamos and excadrill which many player use these to stop Electrc+Ice move. But 115 speed let Raikou slower than dugdrio, weavile, scarf ttar, tie speed with Starmie. Jolteon get faster speed and use baton pass run away. Finally Raikou has a useless ability.

 

Imo Raikou = Jolteon, They are different, but the strength is consistent, both have serious shortcoming. So I think Raikou is on it's way to UU just like Jolteon xd

 

 

Yea, however, Hippowdon dislikes Specs Scald (252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 112-132 (52 - 61.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), Nidoqueen even more (252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Nidoqueen: 102-120 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) , Mienshao is ok to click u-turn and switch into a revenge killer, but isn't an excellent check, it loses in 1v1 to CM Kou if switch when kou use Calm Mind (+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 69-82 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO , (+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 103-123 (59.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, after CC Drop) Ttar hates gets burned from scald and +1 Aura Sphere guarantees OHKO in offensive sets after rocks, Shedinja just dies to Toxic variants

Raikou is far away better than Jolteon, it's bulkier, has better coverage and is more versatile, speed is the only thing that Jolteon is better, and isn't something very relevant,
Raikou is the third fastest mon in OU, together with Starmie, it just loses in speed to Dugtrio and Weavile, Jolteon fear both, 
Raikou and Jolteon looks like Magneton and Magnezone, however, there's no reason to run Jolteon over Kou in OU

[Huargensy]

Just use Lanturn

[RysPicz]

3 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

Just use Lanturn

how about I go for sub + cm and lanturn won't break my sub <:V

 

What has Raikou over Jolteon:

+Offensive movepool

+Base special attack (although debatable due to natures)

+Bulk

+muh legendary

 

What Jolteon has over Raikou:

+Support movepool

+Speed

+Abilities (both HA and regular)

+muh eeveelution

 

I think Raikou's destination is going to be UU and I really wonder it it's gonna be preferred over Jolteon

[Quinn010]

its actually crazy people think a shitmon like jolteon is close to a electric dog

[KeldeoCrowned]

6 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

how about I go for sub + cm and lanturn won't break my sub <:V

 

What has Raikou over Jolteon:

+Offensive movepool

+Base special attack (although debatable due to natures)

+Bulk

+muh legendary

 

What Jolteon has over Raikou:

+Support movepool

+Speed

+Abilities (both HA and regular)

+muh eeveelution

 

I think Raikou's destination is going to be UU and I really wonder it it's gonna be preferred over Jolteon

 wdym with support movepool? Wish, Heal Bell and Yawn aren't even viable on Jolteon 
Pressure is excellent in CM Subs Sets, even better than Volt Absorb
Quick Feet is useless in 99,99% of the games 

Kou gonna be top viability in OU, or i'm a door 

[Ziiiiio]

OK i mean they both 5hit

 

[RysPicz]

8 minutes ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

 wdym with support movepool? Wish, Heal Bell and Yawn aren't even viable on Jolteon 

bruh. baton pass...

 

8 minutes ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Pressure is excellent in CM Subs Sets, even better than Volt Absorb

It would be cool if it had a better typing like Suicune and better bulk. Have you ever seen a stalling Raikou in your competitive years? I play competitive pokemon for like 13 years and I have never seen one...

9 minutes ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Quick Feet is useless in 99,99% of the games 

Flame orb + quick feet Jolt is already seeing usage in UU and it isn't in 0.01% games

 

10 minutes ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Kou gonna be top viability in OU, or i'm a door 

Revolving door or just standard?

[Ziiiiio]

2小时前，KeldeoCrowned 说：

Hippowdon dislikes Specs Scald

I agree, but it hard to pick 4 moves from it's move pool. losing hp-ice or dont bring Aura sphere. it does not like Gallade(before nerfed) breaks whole meta with 4 moves. If a pokemon has 6 moves then Conkeldorr end this match already.

 

2小时前，KeldeoCrowned 说：

there's no reason to run Jolteon over Kou in OU

I did not express that jolteon was a better option, I described their competitive relationship and the trade-off between speed/movepool in OU. There is alot of player spamming stall teams with Shedinja+dugdrio and Gastrodon+ttar which solves it easily. Raikou's offensive advantage is more reflected in the face of the HO team cz Aura sphere kills mamos/excadrill, then rest of many attakers hate high speed electric+ice combo moves.

 

37分钟前，KeldeoCrowned 说：

Kou gonna be top viability in OU

Better change Kou to Zapdos, I think Raikou stays aroud UUBL

[KeldeoCrowned]

37 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

bruh. baton pass...

 

It would be cool if it had a better typing like Suicune and better bulk. Have you ever seen a stalling Raikou in your competitive years? I play competitive pokemon for like 13 years and I have never seen one...

Flame orb + quick feet Jolt is already seeing usage in UU and it isn't in 0.01% games

 

Revolving door or just standard?

CM Subs doesn't mean stall, 0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Raikou: 30-36 (18.1 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO, SBomb can't break a +1 Sub, 
Pressure is useful to drain defensive mons pps as Amoonguss, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, and even EQLess Gastrodon, it's really an useful ability, Jolteon V Absorb is just useful to 
do a risky plays vs Washtom and Zone in OU

I'm talking about OU

I'm not a door 

Edited September 4, 2023 by KeldeoCrowned

[RysPicz]

Just now, KeldeoCrowned said:

I'm not a door 

I got your post bookmarked and I shall return soon enough

[caioxlive13]

10 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

Apart from something you mentioned, you can try Spd hippowdon, nidoqueen, Shedinja, dugdrio, Chansey, AV mienshao, ttar...... 

They're not 100% until you reveal to be a CM set. And yes, there is a Specs variant. Hippowdon can't go on scald as Keldeo mentioned, Nidoqueen is even worse, Shedinja is niche but hazards on your field and he is dead. Dugtrio will die if there is hazards and raikou has a sub avaliable, chansey i've mentioned, and tytar fears Aura Sphere. Mienshao is a doubt if can hold Raikou's snowball.

Still force a Zugzwang on your team: All those answers are not 100%, and the only 100% ones you cannot use because it will weaken your team.

[KeldeoCrowned]

56 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

They're not 100% until you reveal to be a CM set. And yes, there is a Specs variant. Hippowdon can't go on scald as Keldeo mentioned, Nidoqueen is even worse, Shedinja is niche but hazards on your field and he is dead. Dugtrio will die if there is hazards and raikou has a sub avaliable, chansey i've mentioned, and tytar fears Aura Sphere. Mienshao is a doubt if can hold Raikou's snowball.

Still force a Zugzwang on your team: All those answers are not 100%, and the only 100% ones you cannot use because it will weaken your team.

no caio, chansey is 100% counter of raikou, it can't do anything against her, just bizarre sets as Rest Raikou can win vs chansey in 1v1, but it's almost useless vs the entire metagame

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

no caio, chansey is 100% counter of raikou, it can't do anything against her, just bizarre sets as Rest Raikou can win vs chansey in 1v1, but it's almost useless vs the entire metagame

i'm telling that Chansey is counter, but only if run seismic. Psywave has rolls to not break subs and that makes it not 100%. The true and safe counter is seismic sets and those ones can't do anything against ghost types, in particular subs chandelure and gengar. Yes, you solved raikou problem but now you has to deal with other mon, like it was if you've runned Gastrodon, you've solved problem with Raikou but has to deal with suicune.

Edited September 5, 2023 by caioxlive13

[KeldeoCrowned]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:19 PM, caioxlive13 said:

i'm telling that Chansey is counter, but only if run seismic. Psywave has rolls to not break subs and that makes it not 100%. The true and safe counter is seismic sets and those ones can't do anything against ghost types, in particular subs chandelure and gengar. Yes, you solved raikou problem but now you has to deal with other mon, like it was if you've runned Gastrodon, you've solved problem with Raikou but has to deal with suicune.

Psywave isn't the most viable thing on chansey, it just hits niche mons as Subs CM Chandelure and Sub Gengar, there are better viable counterplays 

[caioxlive13]

On 9/5/2023 at 10:31 PM, KeldeoCrowned said:

Psywave isn't the most viable thing on chansey, it just hits niche mons as Subs CM Chandelure and Sub Gengar, there are better viable counterplays 

not exactly. People often change seismic or psywave bcause seismic doesn't hit ghost but hit everything else, and psywave don't hit Hydreigon and other dark types but hit everything else.. Add a bit of pressure to opponent if he switches or not.

Edited September 7, 2023 by caioxlive13

[KeldeoCrowned]

20 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

not exactly. People often change seismic or psywave bcause seismic doesn't hit ghost but hit everything else, and psywave don't hit Hydreigon and other dark types but hit everything else.. Add a bit of pressure to opponent if he switches or not.

yes caio, what I said?

[KremMinato]

I want to talk about Amoonguss，ou lack of means to counter it.

我想谈谈关于败露球菇的事，ou缺少手段反制他。

The balanced team has been wiped out by Amoonguss.

平衡队已经被盾菇打没了。

It is difficult for common thugs in the environment to kill it.Even being killed.

环境里常见打手很难杀死它，甚至被反杀。

Starmie  IceBeam 252spa LifeOrb  vs Amoonguss  252hp 12spd  65.2%-72.9%

Draginite 252Atk+1，Adamant Fire Punch vs Amoonguss252hp  248def Bold 58.8%-69.7%

There are many more, so I won't talk about them.They can't kill it. But it will be killed.

Giga Drain，Foul Play，Sludge Bomb，These skills have a great influence on thugs.

还有很多所以我就不多说了，他们都一击必杀不了败露球菇，但是败露球菇可以反杀他们，欺诈，终极吸取，污泥炸弹，威胁性很高。

I hope to make some suitable adjustments to it.

我希望能平衡一下败露球菇。

English is machine translation, which may be wrong, but I try my best to make people understand it. There are Chinese below, and I hope friends who know Chinese can see it.

[DoubleJ]

Weezing with Neutralizing Gas is a dank play with hazards on the field to aggressively chip Regenerator users. Balance often comes with hazards so that's a simple tactic that also covers a wide variety of other offensive threats (Conkeldurr, Serperior, etc). Amoongus is also hard stopped by some set up sweepers with substitute, so that's an open door to take advantage.

 

A-tier mon in OU. Not broken. 

[Ziiiiio]

Add that mon in your team when you can not beat it. See how others beat it then you find the right way. 

[caioxlive13]

Well, some time before we have complains about Chansey Wish Tp, and we will face some simmilar problem once Alomomola Regen with Wish + Baton pass is there. Also slowbro future + tp with regen can be problematic.

I think we need to take actions before having to ban mons to Ubers. The best nerf imo is make Baton Pass and Teleport apply Heal Block's effect on the users and the mons entering, until the end of the turn used. Alomomola and Chansey can still wish and heal a partner but they need to switch directly and risk dmg on them. Slowbro can use Future Sight but cannot switch via tp to generate a comfortable position for a partner, unless he doesn't care about regen not activating.

Edited September 23, 2023 by caioxlive13

[YourAngst]

This moment seems as good as any to step out of ghosting and speak my mind out especially since the main problems have been

recognized and since i also started playing the game again , for reference im solely looking at the OU tier since i don t play the other 2 and thus i don t know how this possible changes (that prob will never happen) can affect those tiers , second i won t bother to be 100% professional about this since that time is long gone and some actions need to be taken now before things get out of hand even more then they already are .

 

 

As said by poseidon and artofkilling the current OU is dictated by chaos and match up fishing , now the chaos part comes from too many things being good all at oance but i do belive if we somehow solve the match up fishing problem we can solve the choas one as well since they do bleed into eachother.Now in my opinion those problems didn begin to rise since Sinnoh and the mons we got from sinnoh they started riseing since we got unova and the conk era but thats a bit besside the point.

 

 

Match up fishing happens since a certain team style or playstyle gets used/played more then the others and in our case(or how i see it ) the problem is stall and only stall.

Stall is extremly weak not since we got the PP nerf update but ever since Unova like i said above , however stall gets used to such absurd usage due to the ''top players'' that get too emotionally attached to theyr raiting and possition on the leadderboards since out of all the playstyles stall allows you to make the most mistakes ,2nd being ballanced while minimizing risk and ofcourse the rest of the players will slowly but surly fallow and copy what the ''top players'' are useing and since everyone wants to get a quick free win others started and used stall-breaking teams to counter those wich get counterd by HO be it rain ho or weatherless ho and thus we get to match up fishing everyone trys to counter eachother for a quick , cheap win .

 

The whole proble is simply a mentality thing since a weak playstyle gets used more then the others yet everyone is tring to counter eachother and yet to no avail.

So my solution ( as i see it rigth now, i can be wrong and the problem lies somewhere else ) is to nerf stall to the ground , maybe not makeing stall borderline unplaybel since that can also lead to the OU meta becomeing HO on HO slugfests but atleast close to borderline unplaybel so here are the changes i propose:

 

1) Invert the gallade nerf

 

All i can say is that i am sorry for not being around for the gallade discussion the ''counter arguments'' for gallade being ''broken'' are deplorable to say the least , i mean comeone people why did you all bring in gallade calcs against walls?! Like what did you expect from a wall braker?

Here is a pro tip (that 9 out of 10 stall-lords don t want you to know) gallade is not a mon you can wall  you have to out offense it , you know what other pokemon fits the same ''uber offensive characteristics'' as gallade does yet its not used? Ramparods, thoughts?

Gallade should be the first mon to retunr back with the acctaul sharpness and not adaptability for sliceing moves.

 

2) Ban or complex ban dugtrio

 

This should go without saying as dug gets used only on stall teams and like before proves to be to good against ho and ballnced styles makeing stall a bit more potent then it should be , as for the complex ban i have 2 suggestions 1. arena trap gets the shadow tag treatment , 2. dug can t use reversal or maybe both

 

 

3) Buffed knock off

 

Now this can be a game changer but before anyone jumps on me i mean a knock off that has just 65 base power without the 2nd effect of dealing 2x damage if an item gets knocked off , i can see the many problems this can bring since removeing an item is not only effective against a stall team but the other 2 team styles as well but going with the assumption that it hurts stall teams more then the other 2

 

 

4)Give us zapdos( and the other 2 as well i guess)

 

Zapdos can be a doubel edge sword since it can fit in all playstyles and sub-playstyles but like i said makeing stall truly unplaybel may not be the correct way to go about it and zapdos being this jack of all trades do to its versatility could be a nice adition since it helps all playstyles not just one in particular and also without heavy duty boots and the omni prezents of hazzardz zapdos should be easier to deal with (atleast on paper)

 

 

5)Give chomp SD back and re-test it

 

Main argument for this one is simpy the addition of unware quagsire since this alongside skar can stop chomp in its tracks , again as well as being a nice addition to counter stall and since offensively it still has some soft checks like ice sharders and bp scizor to worry about as well as other stuff i say its worth at the very least a re test since sd chomp can prove a great solution for this problem

 

 

6) Give us fairy types

 

This is another double edge sword but before again, anyone trys to jump me and scream about how clef is some unkillebel wall that has 0 counter play and then procced to show some  calcs hear me out , same as i said about zapdos , clef can be a jack of all trades being able to be either offensive , deffensive or just pivot/utillity and yes despite asking for fairy types i am looking only at clef since i don t see how other fairy types could impact the tier like azu,togekiss ...ect. nor im goona start and theorymon how could other fairys impact the tier but i do say maybe we should just get the fairy typeing without moonblast since that move is cheap , way to cheap

 

 

7) Give us draco meteor hydra

 

Now in all honesty as much as i would like to see this make a return dm hydra is without a doubt broken with little to no counter play , the only broken thing that ever got baned from OU and will not return if we don t get the fairys but esspecely now that it has acces to nasty plot , more utility and while dug is around but its worth a shout-out

 

 

And this concludes all the changes i think can solve the current issues we face , now since this is not my first rodeo i know some smart boi will try and ''well  um actually '' me and tell me how wrong and delusional i am and then procced to call me ciao2 , for all i care go ahead and do that, being ignorant about this is probles and pretend everything is fine is a choice as well .

 

Thank you for reading .

 

 

[caioxlive13]

7 hours ago, YourAngst said:

This moment seems as good as any to step out of ghosting and speak my mind out especially since the main problems have been

recognized and since i also started playing the game again , for reference im solely looking at the OU tier since i don t play the other 2 and thus i don t know how this possible changes (that prob will never happen) can affect those tiers , second i won t bother to be 100% professional about this since that time is long gone and some actions need to be taken now before things get out of hand even more then they already are .

 

 

As said by poseidon and artofkilling the current OU is dictated by chaos and match up fishing , now the chaos part comes from too many things being good all at oance but i do belive if we somehow solve the match up fishing problem we can solve the choas one as well since they do bleed into eachother.Now in my opinion those problems didn begin to rise since Sinnoh and the mons we got from sinnoh they started riseing since we got unova and the conk era but thats a bit besside the point.

 

 

Match up fishing happens since a certain team style or playstyle gets used/played more then the others and in our case(or how i see it ) the problem is stall and only stall.

Stall is extremly weak not since we got the PP nerf update but ever since Unova like i said above , however stall gets used to such absurd usage due to the ''top players'' that get too emotionally attached to theyr raiting and possition on the leadderboards since out of all the playstyles stall allows you to make the most mistakes ,2nd being ballanced while minimizing risk and ofcourse the rest of the players will slowly but surly fallow and copy what the ''top players'' are useing and since everyone wants to get a quick free win others started and used stall-breaking teams to counter those wich get counterd by HO be it rain ho or weatherless ho and thus we get to match up fishing everyone trys to counter eachother for a quick , cheap win .

 

The whole proble is simply a mentality thing since a weak playstyle gets used more then the others yet everyone is tring to counter eachother and yet to no avail.

So my solution ( as i see it rigth now, i can be wrong and the problem lies somewhere else ) is to nerf stall to the ground , maybe not makeing stall borderline unplaybel since that can also lead to the OU meta becomeing HO on HO slugfests but atleast close to borderline unplaybel so here are the changes i propose:

 

1) Invert the gallade nerf

 

All i can say is that i am sorry for not being around for the gallade discussion the ''counter arguments'' for gallade being ''broken'' are deplorable to say the least , i mean comeone people why did you all bring in gallade calcs against walls?! Like what did you expect from a wall braker?

Here is a pro tip (that 9 out of 10 stall-lords don t want you to know) gallade is not a mon you can wall  you have to out offense it , you know what other pokemon fits the same ''uber offensive characteristics'' as gallade does yet its not used? Ramparods, thoughts?

Gallade should be the first mon to retunr back with the acctaul sharpness and not adaptability for sliceing moves.

 

2) Ban or complex ban dugtrio

 

This should go without saying as dug gets used only on stall teams and like before proves to be to good against ho and ballnced styles makeing stall a bit more potent then it should be , as for the complex ban i have 2 suggestions 1. arena trap gets the shadow tag treatment , 2. dug can t use reversal or maybe both

 

 

3) Buffed knock off

 

Now this can be a game changer but before anyone jumps on me i mean a knock off that has just 65 base power without the 2nd effect of dealing 2x damage if an item gets knocked off , i can see the many problems this can bring since removeing an item is not only effective against a stall team but the other 2 team styles as well but going with the assumption that it hurts stall teams more then the other 2

 

 

4)Give us zapdos( and the other 2 as well i guess)

 

Zapdos can be a doubel edge sword since it can fit in all playstyles and sub-playstyles but like i said makeing stall truly unplaybel may not be the correct way to go about it and zapdos being this jack of all trades do to its versatility could be a nice adition since it helps all playstyles not just one in particular and also without heavy duty boots and the omni prezents of hazzardz zapdos should be easier to deal with (atleast on paper)

 

 

5)Give chomp SD back and re-test it

 

Main argument for this one is simpy the addition of unware quagsire since this alongside skar can stop chomp in its tracks , again as well as being a nice addition to counter stall and since offensively it still has some soft checks like ice sharders and bp scizor to worry about as well as other stuff i say its worth at the very least a re test since sd chomp can prove a great solution for this problem

 

 

6) Give us fairy types

 

This is another double edge sword but before again, anyone trys to jump me and scream about how clef is some unkillebel wall that has 0 counter play and then procced to show some  calcs hear me out , same as i said about zapdos , clef can be a jack of all trades being able to be either offensive , deffensive or just pivot/utillity and yes despite asking for fairy types i am looking only at clef since i don t see how other fairy types could impact the tier like azu,togekiss ...ect. nor im goona start and theorymon how could other fairys impact the tier but i do say maybe we should just get the fairy typeing without moonblast since that move is cheap , way to cheap

 

 

7) Give us draco meteor hydra

 

Now in all honesty as much as i would like to see this make a return dm hydra is without a doubt broken with little to no counter play , the only broken thing that ever got baned from OU and will not return if we don t get the fairys but esspecely now that it has acces to nasty plot , more utility and while dug is around but its worth a shout-out

 

 

And this concludes all the changes i think can solve the current issues we face , now since this is not my first rodeo i know some smart boi will try and ''well  um actually '' me and tell me how wrong and delusional i am and then procced to call me ciao2 , for all i care go ahead and do that, being ignorant about this is probles and pretend everything is fine is a choice as well .

 

Thank you for reading .

 

 

 

 

Problem is the dillema we live. Devs release things that harm stall and benefit rapid play(Gen 9 mainly, game freak f*** stall this gen). However, on tiering TC are doing the opposite. We had plenty and plenty of bans for mons being offensive-uber and support-uber. But, since sinnoh, no mon was banned fitting defensive-uber characteristics on OU. 

 

I strongly agree with what do you described(And now i bet that just because of that people would be against it), but you missed something crucial that make slow play strong: The timer rule. Not saying this rule shouldn't exist, but at the way the rule are, then a meta without it would be better. What is the main issue? The main issue of playing with stall is you has to care about PP. Especially now with recovery nerf. If has no limit or it are 1000 turns like on smogon, rapid teams can play for the win since eventually a stall player will ran out of PP and lose. However 60 minutes with move animation give not enough time to you burn sufficient PP to you win. You can drain all recovery from 1 mon and that's it. If the games ended on tie it would be fair but we have the tiebreaker and the tiebreak criteria is 100% favorable to slow play. So if they manage to reach 60 minutes, which for a stall team is not hard, they have the win ensured. That's the problem.

[n0etics]

While I realize we're on Gen 9 movesets, I humbly request that Levitate be put back on Gengar. We have plenty of checks to it now, unlike before, and he would be far from the most broken mon given the current meta. Thanks for your consideration, oh wise council