UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[DoubleJ]

3 hours ago, Onraider said:

@Munyawhats the status of the discussion/voting process of pz back into UU? Heard that there was no input regarding this from some tc members and hence a vote was unable to be initiated

Currently voting to approve a suspect test.

[NiceRNGbro]

What do you think can stop this rain and sun spam?

[pachima]

19 minutes ago, NiceRNGbro said:

What do you think can stop this rain and sun spam?

the TC

[VicPinto]

Ban Venusaur.

[caioxlive13]

To see what happens when you judge a opinion just based on who send it and ignore even the opinion itself.

 

I told sun would be a problem too, but people was too focused on rain being issued that when i talked about sun i get ignored.

Edited August 31, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Imperial]

It's only been a day...

 

Having said that, I hope the tier will be more creative instead of just spamming weather wars and fishing for a good match up.

[TohnR]

7 hours ago, Imperial said:

Having said that, I hope the tier will be more creative instead of just spamming weather wars and fishing for a good match up.

You hope wrong. When sun was half as good as it is now with great ice priorities and scarf birds (Staraptor, you'll be missed) to outspeed sun sweepers it was still fairly popular
Same goes with screen. Same goes with those Xatu Ambipom Yanmega & 3 fillers teams that were abused when they destroyed the offensive metagame. 
People will always look for a matchup fish

[VadimEmpoleon]

Any thoughts on dropping Shaymin to UU again now that new things were added?

 

Sun teams can deal with it offensively, Ninetales is a decent check for Shaymin and would force more Shaymins to run Earth Power which wasn't a very good option before since Psychic was better in most cases.

 

Rain teams also have a chance against it with Nasty Plot Golduck, Ludicolo special or SD, Bellydrum Poliwrath, Shaymin would also be helpful against stronger rain sweepers like Seismitoad.

 

We still have Crobat, Mandibuzz, Xatu, Rotom Heat, Durant. Mandibuzz is probably the best answer to Shaymin because it doesn't fear Sleep Powder and can resist everything from Shaymin's movepool (Seed Flare, Earth Power, HP Fire, Psychic, Air Slash) being its only fear getting its Special Defense dropped from Seed Flare and getting hit by Air Slash after that. Some other special walls like Snorlax, Umbreon or Dusclops can deal with Shaymin too but they would need to be switched if their Special Defense is dropped.

 

While not very relevant Ninjask appeared in the tier as an answer to weather teams and it can also deal with Shaymin.

 

At the end of the month if Entei or Raikou drop by usage (and assuming the don't get banned to BL) they would be helpful to deal with Shaymin too because of Pressure.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by VadimEmpoleon
typo

[LeJovi]

4 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Any thoughts on dropping Shaymin to UU again now that new things were added?

 

Sun teams can deal with it offensively, Ninetales is a decent check for Shaymin and would force more Shaymins to run Earth Power which wasn't a very good option before since Psychic was better in most cases.

 

Rain teams also have a chance against it with Nasty Plot Golduck, Ludicolo special or SD, Bellydrum Poliwrath, Shaymin would also be helpful against stronger rain sweepers like Seismitoad.

 

We still have Crobat, Mandibuzz, Xatu, Rotom Heat, Durant. Mandibuzz is probably the best answer to Shaymin because it doesn't fear Sleep Powder and can resist everything from Shaymin's movepool (Seed Flare, Earth Power, HP Fire, Psychic, Air Slash) being its only fear getting its Special Defense dropped from Seed Flare and getting hit by Air Slash after that. Some other special walls like Snorlax, Umbreon or Dusclops can deal with Shaymin too but they would need to be switched if their Special Defense is dropped.

 

While not very relevant Ninjask appeared in the tier as an answer to weather teams and it can also deal with Shaymin.

 

At the end of the month if Entei or Raikou drop by usage (and assuming the don't get banned to BL) they would be helpful to deal with Shaymin too because of Pressure.

 

 

100% agree

[FlacuSkye]

Even after both Ninetales and Politoed dropped to UU and thus weather based teams, i feel Shaymin would still be concerning.
Let's say a standard Life Orb 3 attacks + Recover set is used. It can basically tear through most of the archetypes thanks to all its amazing characteristics. 
Almost all the answers provided aren't reliable specially if rocks are on the field and it runs the correct Hidden Power.

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 135-161 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 

Even if it manages to survive, it gets into a complicated situation, it falls to another Psychic after healing with Roost and can't even KO Shaymin with Brave Bird after LO damage

0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 126-150 (72 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO  (21.6 - 25.7% recoil damage)

If it does BB, it dies to recoil and Shaymin would still be alive with 5 to 18% who can recover later on. Of course, this situation will not always happen, it could just do Seed Flare on the Crobat switch in, etc.

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Xatu: 74-87 (43 - 50.5%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO
Shaky check at best, also can't threaten too much by also being slower.
0 SpA Xatu Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 84-98 (48 - 56%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 68-82 (38.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Rotom-H seems like a more reliable answer since it can run a specially defensive spread.
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 39-47 (24.8 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Still, some people might run HP Rock on it. Even then, it isn't KO'd by it after SR+Seed Flare.
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 55-65 (35 - 41.4%) -- 67.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Durant might be one of the best offensive checks in the metagame, only dying to a rare HP Fire on the switch in.
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Durant: 48-57 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 182-216 (104 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

The only way that a Shaymin could get rid off a specially defensive Mandibuzz would be if it gets the SpD drop (just like anything that can be deemed as a "counter") and runs HP Ice/Rock.
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 42-49 (19.3 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 114-135 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 98-116 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can't even kill it smh)

The situation is almost like months ago, there are no new ways of dealing with Shaymin for all archetypes, only the addition of weather based teams.
Also Bronzong (a potential check) moving to OU just makes it worse.
The only viable AV mon that has a shot at dealing with it is Tentacruel, who can't even recover its health at all and will die from chip.

A suspect test could be done, but i think it would be banned again.

[GSTricks]

What do u Guys think will Staraptor drop Back to uu anytime?

[Munya]

It in BL1, so unless they vote to test it again no.

[Haxx]

Haxorous have 1.31% overall usage in OU so its fair enough to become UU tier.

[Haxx]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:16 AM, GSTricks said:

Staraptor

I agree

[Imperial]

On 11/1/2023 at 4:16 PM, GSTricks said:

What do u Guys think will Staraptor drop Back to uu anytime?

No way especially with Bronzong in OU.

[Munya]

7 hours ago, Haxx said:

Haxorous have 1.31% overall usage in OU so its fair enough to become UU tier.

Its in BL, if you want to make a case for testing it again you can, but I don't think haxorus has ever come up where it didn't almost unanimously get shot down.

[caioxlive13]

17 hours ago, Haxx said:

Haxorous have 1.31% overall usage in OU so its fair enough to become UU tier.

Not a chance TC will let. It has a scaring atk, i think it's one of the highest in game, it also has DD to boost even further, and a amazing ability that are Mold Breaker. The only thing that could try to check could be an scarf user that is able to KO it, but without good Ice types is hard to find one, and the only weakness Haxorus has is Ice and Dragon. Also prioritys can take Haxorus but i don't think there is a priority on UU strong enough to do that. 
steel fat mons that historically could stop dragons, lose to quake, even if bronzong was UU it wouldn't change since Haxorus's Mold Breaker doesn't care to Levitate and let quake hit there. 

I can only think on head of Flygon able to KO it, but it needs to be scarf, and switch on the turn he is setuping. Any of those condition is not met, it loses.

Edited November 23, 2023 by caioxlive13

[YourAngst]

Hello  everyone  ,

I think shaymin can be  a great addition to the current UU tier and help its development towards a healthier one ,it has been a year since  shaymin was discussed in UU. (https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/157746-uubl-shaymin/#comments)

Since then I think that UU has had enough development to where shaymin can be reintroduced in the tier this time as a more reasonable pokemon and not one the will run the tier ram pit .

Just like last time most players will point out to sahymins offensive  capabilities so I am going to brake those down first ,

The set I have in mind :

 Timid- 252 sp atk /252 speed –Life orb:-Seed flare /Earthpower/Air Slash or Psychic  or sleep powder or HP Ice/Fire / Recover or synthesis or Rest

It is true that shaymin does have the coverage  to hit most would be checks for super effective dmg and beat them while also having  good bulk over all despite going full offensive I fell as all those traits good as they seem they are also taken for granted, first 100 across the board while  good they are not stellar not to mention that mono grass is not a good offensive typing despite seed flare having the potential to sp def drop , this move has more going against it then with it  , 8 max pp with 85% acc and 40% for the sp def drop to take effect makes the move a lot less reliable then players make it out to be and here is an important thing  to understand :

Rng  exists yes , yes it sucks when its going against us , yes this move is cheap but the odds add up against the move still assuming it will always hit and always get the sp def drop this is how the tier can deal with offensive shaymin now:

Spoiler

 Empoleon 

Since last time empo has gotten access to competitive as its hidden ability  which turns the tide   of this match up in empo  favor.  Previously empo caring ice beam would not do anything  to shaymin

0 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 74-88 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile shaymin has the luxury to fish for a spdef drop which would  drop empo as well

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 79-95 (41.3 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 160-188 (83.7 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

But now with competitive  things look diffrent  : 2 0 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 146-174 (83.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

It is true that this alone dosen t make empo a free switch into shaymin nor does it make a very solid check over all but  it does force shaymin to hard switch out of an healthy empo something that could not be done before since trying to 1v1 is no longer an option , not to mention if shaymin is also  not close to full health or has to come into rocks this makes things even harder for an offensive shaymin

 

Crobat

Not much to say about this one , crobat has since oriented towards a more offensive approach since the last shaymin discussion and now it has the power to beat shaymin  with ease

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 162-192 (92.5 - 109.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

On top of that if you really need to you can also throw crobat into psychic and still scare shaymin out even force a 50/50 between BB and roost(this one no longer applays as well as before still its not a clean OHKO on crobat so stuff can still work out in favor of crobat)

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 135-161 (84.3 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

Raikou

While is true that rai can t hard switch into shaymin it does have the possibility to stall it out thanks to pressure

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raikou: 110-133 (66.6 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (worse then before but still applays more or less)

On top of that a sub +cm raikou can also deal with shaymin not to mention at +1 sp def psychic  from shaymin no longer brakes the sub and even seed flare is not as threatening has a decent chance  to brake sub now

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Raikou: 38-45 (23 - 27.2%) -- 61.4% chance to 4HKO(new)

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Raikou: 75-90 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO

At +1 cmrai can also 2hko shaymin without  fearing anything

+1 252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 94-112 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Venusaur  was also used as a sp def wall example back then should go without saying that now shaymin got nothing on venu (as long as sun is up ofc )

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 187-221 (106.8 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Also if need be an offensive venu can also hard switch into shaymin

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 114-135 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can still hard switch)

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 94-112 (60.6 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Since I brought venu up seems fair to also to bring up Ninetails , they both share the same speed tier and while is indeed a very  bad idea to let you re weather setter take any sort of damage now with access to  drought ninetails can threaten a OHKO to shaymin even with flamethrower

Ninetails

 

 

252 SpA Ninetales Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin in Sun: 168-200 (96 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Fire blast is a OHKO from full , meanwhile best shaymin can do is try and hope for a sleep powder hit but this also requires to win the speed tie and also hit the move not to mention ninetails can also survive an earth power while not being necessarily close to full hp

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 112-133 (75.6 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

 

Entei is not doing that hot against shaymin mostly since they when compare to ninetails , entai has no special bulk whatsoever if entei is adamant it can t even raw switch into a seed flare and stay in , even if shaymin dosen t get the sp def boost as entei will get outspeed and killed

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 70-83 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 143-169 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Only thing entei has going for it in this matchup is threatening a powerful Espeed

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 69-82 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Sigilyph

 

This one can do some stuff against offensive shaymin depending on the set , a a bulky one with max hp and CM dosen t get 2HKO from seed flare and does threaten a 2HKO with air slash being another mon that scares shaymin out as well as requiring shaymin to stay healthy not to mention a fire orb set can t be put to sleep by shaymin 

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 66-79 (36.8 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Sigilyph Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 86-104 (49.1 - 59.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

And in the case where no drops happen sigil can also start and set up with cm+roost even if shaymin does get the drop eventually it had to use quite the PPs on seed flare

Only thing shaymin can do against this set is either hope for a seed flare drop or carry HP Ice

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 91-109 (50.8 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A sigil with only 92 hp evs also dosen t get 2HKO by seed flare

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 66-79 (41.5 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Dusclops

Dusclops was also brought up as a possible check to shaymin thanks to its bulk and acces to pressure

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 60-71 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It does look grim for this ghost indeed however with access to Rest dusclops can force shaymin to go for seed flare again and assuming no drops shaymin had to use half its PP on seed flare at this point which can  be huge and even if the first Seed Flare does get the  drop only another seed Flare can KO Dusclopse and Dusc dosen t die to any other move shaymin has even at –2 sp def  assuming  shaymin did not get a high roll on the first flare

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 60-71 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 51-60 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 60-71 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Dusclops while it may not be the best around the block to neutralize shaymin it can slow it down quite a bunch as shaymin requires a lot of luck in this matchup to beat Dusclops

 

Offenisve Rotom(s)

Rotom forms don t get much done against shaymin although they don t get 2HKO by seed flare  even with no bulk investment psychic does have a chance to   2HKO Rotom-Mow and Heat as well as HP ice does 2HKO Rotom -Mow

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 53-62 (42.4 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 53-64 (42.4 - 51.2%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 73-86 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

A max HP Rotom-Mow or Heat do sponge hits better

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 53-62 (33.7 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 53-64 (33.7 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

This gives Rotoms chances to come in and potently gain momentum via volt switch on top of wasting a crucial Seed Flare for shaymin

Calcs for offensive Rotom-Heat are the same as the Rotom-Mow ones expect this lil oven can OHKO back however Rotom-heat can t switch that well into shaymin if rocks are up

252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 192-228 (109.7 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 53-62 (42.4 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Same calcs apply for a max hp Rotom-Heat as well , if Rotoms were to carry leftovers psychic becomes a 3HKO  

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 53-64 (42.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Overall Rotoms forms may not perform that well against shaymin , Rotom-Mow can t get much done and has to watch out for HP Ice however it is immune to sleep powder and a scarf one can get in and gain momentum  ,Rotom-Heat while it dosen t want to come into shaymin with rocks up it does threaten a OHKO

 

Machamp

It should come to no surprise that a standard offensive machamp doesn t get to play against shaymin , it does not die from full hp even with no bulk investment however it dosen t do anything in return either unless it has its flame orb active before it starts to face shaymin but this one can be hard to achieve since it has to be done on a double switch so machamp can stay close to full HP

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 130-153 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 129-152 (78.1 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 169-201 (96.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO – shaymin will die  since it has taken life orb recoil

 

A max HP machmp with assault vest has a chance to beat shaymin 1on1 with dynamic  punch  of course  this goes out the window if seed flare drops the first time

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 87-103 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 88-104 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO

200+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 91-108 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Porygone-Z

Not much to say about PZ since shaymin can put 4 evs into sp def to get around Download on top of out speeding  it( unless it has scarf) and having a decent chance  to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Porygon-Z: 140-165 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

A scarf PZ can however pick up a relatively healty shaymin even without the boost from Download

252+ SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 116-138 (66.2 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO – this one is Modest PZ with a scarf

A timid PZ with specs does not outspeed shaymin and has a chance to die from full but if that dosen t happen

252 SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 158-186 (90.2 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO – shaymin dies since it has taken life orb recoil

 

 

Ambipom

Ambipom outspeeds shaymin by a mile and does threaten to KO with Fake Out+Double Edge combo (assuming it does not get both rolls low)

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 56-68 (32 - 38.8%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 110-133 (62.8 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Without life orb

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 52-63 (29.7 - 36%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 103-123 (58.8 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Bisharp

Bisharp just like the 2 above is a straight forward case , unlike them however it does not die to seed flare , it is 1HKO by earthpower tho

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 74-87 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 148-177 (105.7 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

However if shaymin does not carry earthpower  bisharp wins this one as a drop from seed flare will trigger defiant

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 165-195 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

So a shaymin that wants to spam seed flare needs to be careful of bisharp as a +2 bishop can force it out with sucker punch not to mention that at +2 if bisharp has pursuit and shaymin wants to switch out it will die

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 187-222 (106.8 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

Durant /Herracros/Ninjask/Yanmega

Durant outspeeds shaymin and has a chance to OHKO even without Hustle while not taking  to much fromseed flare

252 Atk Life Orb Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 156-187 (89.1 - 106.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 49-58 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

With Hustle Durant still KOs even without life orb provided it dosen t miss

252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 182-216 (104 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The other 3 can beat shaymin quite easily , scarf herra mega horn KOs and yanmega only needs a turn of speed boost to ko and beat shaymin with Bug Buzz

 

Umbreon

Talked before Umbreon is not even a soft check to shaymin since  it fears a potential drop while not doing much in return but it can still be used to stall out seed flare pp

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 68-82 (33.6 - 40.5%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0-      Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 49-58 (28 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

The frog

Seismitoad even with no defensive investments can take hits well from shaymin

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 71-84 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 58-70 (32.2 - 38.8%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 71-84 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

And deal some nasty dmg to a shaymin that is not fully healed

252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 112-133 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Shaymin

Should come to no surprise that shaymin can wall its self quite well only thing it has to fear from an opposing shaymin being air slash

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Shaymin: 52-62 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Shaymin: 88-104 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

With the sp def drop

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 72 SpD Shaymin: 105-125 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. -2 252 HP / 72 SpD Shaymin: 140-166 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Moltres(?!)

Moltres will be coming to us the fallowing month and I don t think it’s a farfetched thing to say it will most likely drop to UU where it can  be  a pretty solid answer for shaymin (no rocks up and assuming shaymin will also drop from purgatory  ) how ever it does take  a bit from psychic

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 31-36 (18.7 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 53-64 (32.1 - 38.7%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 64-75 (38.7 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

With the sp def drop

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 126-149 (76.3 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. -2 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 105-125 (63.6 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All this while moltres OHKO shaymin with flamethrower or hurricane even a defensive moltres can  threaten shaymin out

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 122-146 (69.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All in all I tried to go over all mons I personally think that can check/soft check shaymin some offensively some defensively  while it does have huge potential as a wall barker or even a late game cleaner  it also needs a lot of support to achieve that like having the field cleared from  hazards and also needs to stay close to full hp otherwise it’s a risk of getting KOed or walled(temporarily) while on the job not to mention that if offensive shaymin  were to run out of Seed Flare pp its probably going to be pretty useless.

Since UU has become more offensively and fast paced oriented I don t think shaymin is as hard to deal with as it used to be despite good bulk even with no invesments it dosen t get many ‘’free’’ switch ins either again on top of being  very susceptible  to all forms of chip dmg  and a limited move poll , limited as in 4 move syndrome , you can fit all the coverage + HP + recovery move + sleep powder + potential leech seed .

With all this in mind I think its fair to say Shaymin is a lot more tamed in this new UU meta .

 

And while that was offensive shaymin I now want to talk about defensive shaymin / utility shaymin  and this is the addition  I believe will make push the UU tier towards a better one (better then the current state ).    

 As of now the current UU could use a defensive pokemon like shaymin that can slow things down while not being too oppressive  either  having access to a vary of utility moves such as aroma therapy to heal teammates of status  , sleep powder and leech seed giving more opportunities to frailer teammates to switch in  , healing wish for a second wind to other wise out of commission teammates and worry seed to stop ability abusers like chlorophyll venusaur , crawdaunt and many more.

On top of that shaymin can also function as a wall for sand teams for a better matchup against the rain onslaught and not to mention a good wall vs rain in general now I am aware that this sort of role will also benefit sun teams too but I personally don t think that this will push sun teams over the edge .

 

And this concludes why I think shaymin is a great addition to UU going forward , odds are that I most likely  missed to mention / talk about a bunch of other stuff that are very relevant regarding this and so I am more then welcome to constructive feedback and to start the discussion why shaymin is or is it not a great addition to UU , also keep in mind that all of this is just theory and in practice things can or better say will look very differently and so a retest of shaymin in UU will give us the most accurate results.       

 

Edited January 19 by YourAngst
Fixed the wrong calcs , thx Vladim huge blunder on my end

[VadimEmpoleon]

1 hour ago, YourAngst said:

Hello  everyone  ,

 

I think shaymin can be  a great addition to the current UU tier and help its development towards a healthier one ,it has been a year since  shaymin was discussed in UU. (https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/157746-uubl-shaymin/#comments)

 

Since then I think that UU has had enough development to where shaymin can be reintroduced in the tier this time as a more reasonable pokemon and not one the will run the tier ram pit .

 

Just like last time most players will point out to sahymins offensive  capabilities so I am going to brake those down first ,

 

The set I have in mind :

 

 Timid- 252 sp atk /252 speed –Life orb:-Seed flare /Earthpower/Air Slash or Psychic  or sleep powder or HP Ice/Fire / Recover or synthesis or Rest

 

It is true that shaymin does have the coverage  to hit most would be checks for super effective dmg and beat them while also having  good bulk over all despite going full offensive I fell as all those traits good as they seem they are also taken for granted, first 100 across the board while  good they are not stellar not to mention that mono grass is not a good offensive typing despite seed flare having the potential to sp def drop , this move has more going against it then with it  , 8 max pp with 85% acc and 40% for the sp def drop to take effect makes the move a lot less reliable then players make it out to be and here is an important thing  to understand :

 

Rng  exists yes , yes it sucks when its going against us , yes this move is cheap but the odds add up against the move still assuming it will always hit and always get the sp def drop this is how the tier can deal with offensive shaymin now:

  Reveal hidden contents

 Empoleon 

 

Since last time empo has gotten access to competitive as its hidden ability  which turns the tide   of this match up in empo  favor.  Previously empo caring ice beam would not do anything  to shaymin

 

0 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 74-88 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Meanwhile shaymin has the luxury to fish for a spdef drop which would  drop empo as well

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 71-86 (37.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 142-169 (74.3 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

 

But now with competitive  things look diffrent  : 2 0 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 146-174 (83.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

It is true that this alone dosen t make empo a free switch into shaymin nor does it make a very solid check over all but  it does force shaymin to hard switch out of an healthy empo something that could not be done before since trying to 1v1 is no longer an option , not to mention if shaymin is also  not close to full health or has to come into rocks this makes things even harder for an offensive shaymin

 

Crobat

 

Not much to say about this one , crobat has since oriented towards a more offensive approach since the last shaymin discussion and now it has the power to beat shaymin  with ease

 

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 162-192 (92.5 - 109.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

On top of that if you really need to you can also throw crobat into psychic and still scare shaymin out even force a 50/50 between BB and roost

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 120-143 (75 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Raikou

 

While is true that rai can t hard switch into shaymin it does have the possibility to stall it out thanks to pressure

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raikou: 99-118 (60 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

On top of that a sub +cm raikou can also deal with shaymin not to mention at +1 sp def psychic  from shaymin no longer brakes the sub and even seed flare is not as threatening

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Raikou: 66-79 (40 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

At +1 cmrai can also 2hko shaymin without  fearing anything

 

+1 252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 94-112 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

 

Venusaur  was also used as a sp def wall example back then should go without saying that now shaymin got nothing on venu (as long as sun is up ofc )

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 187-221 (106.8 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

 

Also if need be an offensive venu can also hard switch into shaymin

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 101-120 (65.1 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 86-101 (55.4 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Since I brought venu up seems fair to also to bring up Ninetails , they both share the same speed tier and while is indeed a very  bad idea to let you re weather setter take any sort of damage now with access to  drought ninetails can threaten a OHKO to shaymin even with flamethrower

Ninetails

252 SpA Ninetales Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin in Sun: 168-200 (96 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

Fire blast is a OHKO from full , meanwhile best shaymin can do is try and hope for a sleep powder hit but this also requires to win the speed tie and also hit the move not to mention ninetails can also survive an earth power while not being necessarily close to full hp

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 101-120 (68.2 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Entei is not doing that hot against shaymin mostly since they when compare to ninetails , entai has no special bulk whatsoever if entei is adamant it can t even raw switch into a seed flare and stay in , even if shaymin dosen t get the sp def boost as entei will get outspeed and killed

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 62-74 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

 

252- SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 127-151 (66.8 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Only thing entei has going for it in this matchup is threatening a powerful Espeed

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 69-82 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

 

 

Sigilyph

 

This one can do some stuff against offensive shaymin depending on the set , a a bulky one with max hp and CM dosen t get 2HKO from seed flare and does threaten a 2HKO with air slash being another mon that scares shaymin out as well as requiring shaymin to stay healthy not to mention a fire orb set can t be put to sleep by shaymin 

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 66-79 (36.8 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

0 SpA Sigilyph Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 86-104 (49.1 - 59.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

 

And in the case where no drops happen sigil can also start and set up with cm+roost even if shaymin does get the drop eventually it had to use quite the PPs on seed flare

 

Only thing shaymin can do against this set is either hope for a seed flare drop or carry HP Ice

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 91-109 (50.8 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

A sigil with only 92 hp evs also dosen t get 2HKO by seed flare

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 66-79 (41.5 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Dusclops

 

Dusclops was also brought up as a possible check to shaymin thanks to its bulk and acces to pressure

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 60-71 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

It does look grim for this ghost indeed however with access to Rest dusclops can force shaymin to go for seed flare again and assuming no drops shaymin had to use half its PP on seed flare at this point which can  be huge and even if the first Seed Flare does get the  drop only another seed Flare can KO Dusclopse and Dusc dosen t die to any other move shaymin has even at –2 sp def  assuming  shaymin did not get a high roll on the first flare

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 60-71 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 51-60 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 60-71 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Dusclops while it may not be the best around the block to neutralize shaymin it can slow it down quite a bunch as shaymin requires a lot of luck in this matchup to beat Dusclops

 

 

Offenisve Rotom(s)

 

Rotom forms don t get much done against shaymin although they don t get 2HKO by seed flare  even with no bulk investment psychic does have a chance to   2HKO Rotom-Mow and Heat as well as HP ice does 2HKO Rotom -Mow

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 53-62 (42.4 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 53-64 (42.4 - 51.2%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 73-86 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

A max HP Rotom-Mow or Heat do sponge hits better

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 53-62 (33.7 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 53-64 (33.7 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

 

This gives Rotoms chances to come in and potently gain momentum via volt switch on top of wasting a crucial Seed Flare for shaymin

 

Calcs for offensive Rotom-Heat are the same as the Rotom-Mow ones expect this lil oven can OHKO back however Rotom-heat can t switch that well into shaymin if rocks are up

 

252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 192-228 (109.7 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 53-62 (42.4 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

 

Same calcs apply for a max hp Rotom-Heat as well , if Rotoms were to carry leftovers psychic becomes a 3HKO  

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 53-64 (42.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Overall Rotoms forms may not perform that well against shaymin , Rotom-Mow can t get much done and has to watch out for HP Ice however it is immune to sleep powder and a scarf one can get in and gain momentum  ,Rotom-Heat while it dosen t want to come into shaymin with rocks up it does threaten a OHKO

 

 

Machamp

It should come to no surprise that a standard offensive machamp doesn t get to play against shaymin , it does not die from full hp even with no bulk investment however it dosen t do anything in return either unless it has its flame orb active before it starts to face shaymin but this one can be hard to achieve since it has to be done on a double switch so machamp can stay close to full HP

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 130-153 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 129-152 (78.1 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 169-201 (96.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO – shaymin will die  since it has taken life orb recoil

 

 

A max HP machmp with assault vest has a chance to beat shaymin 1on1 with dynamic  punch  of course  this goes out the window if seed flare drops the first time

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 87-103 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 88-104 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO

 

200+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 91-108 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Porygone-Z

 

Not much to say about PZ since shaymin can put 4 evs into sp def to get around Download on top of out speeding  it( unless it has scarf) and having a decent chance  to OHKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Porygon-Z: 140-165 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

A scarf PZ can however pick up a relatively healty shaymin even without the boost from Download

 

252+ SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 116-138 (66.2 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO – this one is Modest PZ with a scarf

 

A timid PZ with specs does not outspeed shaymin and has a chance to die from full but if that dosen t happen

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 158-186 (90.2 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO – shaymin dies since it has taken life orb recoil

 

 

 

Ambipom

 

Ambipom outspeeds shaymin by a mile and does threaten to KO with Fake Out+Double Edge combo (assuming it does not get both rolls low)

 

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 56-68 (32 - 38.8%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO

 

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 110-133 (62.8 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Without life orb

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 52-63 (29.7 - 36%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 103-123 (58.8 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Bisharp

 

Bisharp just like the 2 above is a straight forward case , unlike them however it does not die to seed flare , it is 1HKO by earthpower tho

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 74-87 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 148-177 (105.7 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

However if shaymin does not carry earthpower  bisharp wins this one as a drop from seed flare will trigger defiant

 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 165-195 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

 

So a shaymin that wants to spam seed flare needs to be careful of bisharp as a +2 bishop can force it out with sucker punch not to mention that at +2 if bisharp has pursuit and shaymin wants to switch out it will die

 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 187-222 (106.8 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

 

Durant /Herracros/Ninjask/Yanmega

 

Durant outspeeds shaymin and has a chance to OHKO even without Hustle while not taking  to much fromseed flare

 

252 Atk Life Orb Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 156-187 (89.1 - 106.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 49-58 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

With Hustle Durant still KOs even without life orb provided it dosen t miss

252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 182-216 (104 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

The other 3 can beat shaymin quite easily , scarf herra mega horn KOs and yanmega only needs a turn of speed boost to ko and beat shaymin with Bug Buzz

 

 

Umbreon

 

Talked before Umbreon is not even a soft check to shaymin since  it fears a potential drop while not doing much in return but it can still be used to stall out seed flare pp

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 68-82 (33.6 - 40.5%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0-      Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin: 49-58 (28 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

 

The frog

Seismitoad even with no defensive investments can take hits well from shaymin

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 71-84 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 58-70 (32.2 - 38.8%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 71-84 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

 

And deal some nasty dmg to a shaymin that is not fully healed

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 112-133 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Shaymin

 

Should come to no surprise that shaymin can wall its self quite well only thing it has to fear from an opposing shaymin being air slash

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Shaymin: 52-62 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Shaymin: 88-104 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

With the sp def drop

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 72 SpD Shaymin: 105-125 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. -2 252 HP / 72 SpD Shaymin: 140-166 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Moltres(?!)

Moltres will be coming to us the fallowing month and I don t think it’s a farfetched thing to say it will most likely drop to UU where it can  be  a pretty solid answer for shaymin (no rocks up and assuming shaymin will also drop from purgatory  ) how ever it does take  a bit from psychic

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 31-36 (18.7 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 53-64 (32.1 - 38.7%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 64-75 (38.7 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

 

With the sp def drop

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 126-149 (76.3 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. -2 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 105-125 (63.6 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

All this while moltres OHKO shaymin with flamethrower or hurricane even a defensive moltres can  threaten shaymin out

 

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 122-146 (69.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

All in all I tried to go over all mons I personally think that can check/soft check shaymin some offensively some defensively  while it does have huge potential as a wall barker or even a late game cleaner  it also needs a lot of support to achieve that like having the field cleared from  hazards and also needs to stay close to full hp otherwise it’s a risk of getting KOed or walled(temporarily) while on the job not to mention that if offensive shaymin  were to run out of Seed Flare pp its probably going to be pretty useless.

 

Since UU has become more offensively and fast paced oriented I don t think shaymin is as hard to deal with as it used to be despite good bulk even with no invesments it dosen t get many ‘’free’’ switch ins either again on top of being  very susceptible  to all forms of chip dmg  and a limited move poll , limited as in 4 move syndrome , you can fit all the coverage + HP + recovery move + sleep powder + potential leech seed .

With all this in mind I think its fair to say Shaymin is a lot more tamed in this new UU meta .

 

And while that was offensive shaymin I now want to talk about defensive shaymin / utility shaymin  and this is the addition  I believe will make push the UU tier towards a better one (better then the current state ).    

 

 As of now the current UU could use a defensive pokemon like shaymin that can slow things down while not being too oppressive  either  having access to a vary of utility moves such as aroma therapy to heal teammates of status  , sleep powder and leech seed giving more opportunities to frailer teammates to switch in  , healing wish for a second wind to other wise out of commission teammates and worry seed to stop ability abusers like chlorophyll venusaur , crawdaunt and many more.

 

On top of that shaymin can also function as a wall for sand teams for a better matchup against the rain onslaught and not to mention a good wall vs rain in general now I am aware that this sort of role will also benefit sun teams too but I personally don t think that this will push sun teams over the edge .

 

And this concludes why I think shaymin is a great addition to UU going forward , odds are that I most likely  missed to mention / talk about a bunch of other stuff that are very relevant regarding this and so I am more then welcome to constructive feedback and to start the discussion why shaymin is or is it not a great addition to UU , also keep in mind that all of this is just theory and in practice things can or better say will look very differently and so a retest of shaymin in UU will give us the most accurate results.       

 

 

 

Some of your calcs have a wrong nature that lowers SpAtk, like the Crobat one. 252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 135-161 (84.3 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO.

 

I agree that Shaymin would be a good addition to UU though, UU has changed since the last time and Shaymin now would need HP Rock to deal with Moltres and some other fire type mons.

 

Anyway it is probably pointless to discuss anything if mons like Shaymin get banned and offensive uber+overcentralizing mons like Crawdaunt are not.

[FlacuSkye]

4 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

I agree that Shaymin would be a good addition to UU though, UU has changed since the last time and Shaymin now would need HP Rock to deal with Moltres and some other fire type mons.

UU has undoubtedly changed, but that's not a reason for Shaymin to drop again.
Bronzong, an incredibly important Pokemon in a lot of builds, that could have a shot at checking Shaymin threatening a Toxic and having an opportunity to set up hazards, rose up to OU; Mandibuzz, and even more reliable answer, moved up to OU too. Not only that, Porygon-Z, Raikou and Entei also dropped, so we get to the point where all archetypes that aren't offense or weather have an even harder time trying to stop all these new offensive behemoths, and Shaymin dropping would mean a transformation of the metagame where unless you're running fat stall, you have no chance of surviving (ok i may be exaggerating here Crobat+Empo+Gigalith+Ground is a good core that can stop all these lo).
Although it can be argued that AV users (Machamp, Druddigon, Entei, Tentacruel, Snorlax, Spiritomb) might check Shaymin, weather and more special threats, most of the time they will be switching in into an attack, and since they lack a way of recovery plus getting worn down by hazards, they get crippled easily since AV hinders down their damage output they can be played around with no complications.

 

4 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Anyway it is probably pointless to discuss anything if mons like Shaymin get banned and offensive uber+overcentralizing mons like Crawdaunt are not.

Most used checks/counters of Crawdaunt are Poliwrath and Toxicroak, they are used a lot not only because of being capable of this, but being a very reliable fighting type that can always switch into Empoleon, a staple in all builds. Rotom-Mow has duplicated its usage, more checks like Colbur Berry Jellicent have been explored, and right now Crawdaunt sits on 7.64% usage (almost the same as Arcanine). So can we still affirm Crawdaunt still is both an offensive uber and overcentralizing Pokemon? I myself have run teams weak to Crawdaunt with success since it's not used as much as before.

[VadimEmpoleon]

1 hour ago, FlacuSkye said:

UU has undoubtedly changed, but that's not a reason for Shaymin to drop again.
Bronzong, an incredibly important Pokemon in a lot of builds, that could have a shot at checking Shaymin threatening a Toxic and having an opportunity to set up hazards, rose up to OU; Mandibuzz, and even more reliable answer, moved up to OU too. Not only that, Porygon-Z, Raikou and Entei also dropped, so we get to the point where all archetypes that aren't offense or weather have an even harder time trying to stop all these new offensive behemoths, and Shaymin dropping would mean a transformation of the metagame where unless you're running fat stall, you have no chance of surviving (ok i may be exaggerating here Crobat+Empo+Gigalith+Ground is a good core that can stop all these lo).
Although it can be argued that AV users (Machamp, Druddigon, Entei, Tentacruel, Snorlax, Spiritomb) might check Shaymin, weather and more special threats, most of the time they will be switching in into an attack, and since they lack a way of recovery plus getting worn down by hazards, they get crippled easily since AV hinders down their damage output they can be played around with no complications.

 

Most used checks/counters of Crawdaunt are Poliwrath and Toxicroak, they are used a lot not only because of being capable of this, but being a very reliable fighting type that can always switch into Empoleon, a staple in all builds. Rotom-Mow has duplicated its usage, more checks like Colbur Berry Jellicent have been explored, and right now Crawdaunt sits on 7.64% usage (almost the same as Arcanine). So can we still affirm Crawdaunt still is both an offensive uber and overcentralizing Pokemon? I myself have run teams weak to Crawdaunt with success since it's not used as much as before.

I never found Shaymin banworthy and never found Crawdaunt fine in UU even with Salamence and Shaymin in it but just like I said before it is pointless to discuss anything so I'd rather just let it be. Every test goes for months just like the Crawdaunt one before, things like Magic Bounce Xatu end up placed on OU at release for whatever reason, changes like Sharpness going from x1.4 to x1.5 (when x1.5 was banned before) with no explanation, recovery moves being nerfed to 8 PP while gems stay at x1.5 damage, a lot of non sense is going on so it is just pointless.

[FlacuSkye]

1 hour ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

I never found Shaymin banworthy and never found Crawdaunt fine in UU even with Salamence and Shaymin in it but just like I said before it is pointless to discuss anything so I'd rather just let it be. Every test goes for months just like the Crawdaunt one before, things like Magic Bounce Xatu end up placed on OU at release for whatever reason, changes like Sharpness going from x1.4 to x1.5 (when x1.5 was banned before) with no explanation, recovery moves being nerfed to 8 PP while gems stay at x1.5 damage, a lot of non sense is going on so it is just pointless.

To me, all that is completely irrelevant, there's no point in giving up on your argument just because of decisions made in the past. Even if you think this is all for no good, I disagree, this thread is for the community to make suggestions so actual discussion threads about certain things can be made. If you think this is "pointless", why say it's better to let it be? How is something going to change if you don't speak up?

I really feel a discussion thread for Shaymin should be made, if it's in the realm of possibility.

[Munya]

Worth noting that Shaymin is slated to be discussed at the end of year review(or start of year review I guess idk) for all of the current bans.  Currently talking about Kingdra, then P2, then Shaymin will be after that. 

[Godhelll]

It would be good for the tier if Bronzong and Cofa drops to UU.

 

Machamp is spammed a lot, there are not that many answers to it that are correct. Cofa is a trash in OU, he would be pretty fine in UU tier

 

And about Shaymin, personally, I think that the pokemon can't drop to UU as it is because we still have the same problems with him than before because of Seed Flare -2 SpeDef drop which makes the pokemon uncompetitive in the tier. Anything that you switch-in with get destroyed by it, so yeah the pokemon is a legendary and got a good look but as nothing is about to be made about Seed Flare issue, that means that the pokemon can't be playable in UU, before some other major changes comes to the game

 

 

Edited January 20 by Godhelll

[Munya]

Might be good for the tier but they have to fall below the usage threshold.