[[OU Unofficial Discussion] Dragonite]

Dragonite is the one Pokemon in the game that has virtually no counters, and makes me wonder why some other stuff were banned for that same reason. 

But I digress. First, more importantly than whether a Pokemon has or has not counters/checks or whatever bland word people in this game (Not you, Keldeo) like to use without context, we need to evaluate how consistent that Pokémon sees itself in such position:

1- Dragonite has a mediocre speed and severe weakness to rocks. (Speed can be mitigated with a Dragon Dance set, but that would lose all wallbreaking capabilitites).

2- While Draagonite has a few key resistances and an amazing defensive ability, which could allow it to come in safely into the field, in practice, it doesn't. First, because, as stated above, rocks are very very common and render the ability useless most of the time. Second because Dragonite cannot come safely against any of the top 10 Pokémon without either losing or risking a common coverage move that takes it down. In other words, Dragonite cannot shift momentum offensively against the most common Pokemon, thus minimizing the potential effect of having no counters by itself. In sum, you can say Dragonite is most of the time unable to see itself in a position where having no counters is relevant enough.

 

Because of these 2 things, I don't think Dragonite needs any decision or any complex ban. It is indeed a very powerful wallbreaker (Actually it might be the best one), but its a Pokemon within a tier that has enough tools to deal with it even before it touches the field. It is one of those Pokemon you should be pressuring away before it can be sent into the field.

 

As for your last point. "Obviously,MMO Dragonite isn't strong as them, but is strong enough to centralize PokeMMO metagame, is like a dragon in a world of lizards" :  It could be, but it isn't. While Dragonite is a very common Pokemon, its most used nature is Adamant (68.45%), and worse than that, Life orb only sees 12.86% usage. You may argue people are using it wrong, and I agree, but that's an entire different conversation altogether. The point is that a wallbreaking Dragonite isn't common enough to centralize the metagame. Maybe it could be if people realized how powerful it is and used more, but right now it isn't. 

 

Nevertheless, good to see new people joining this game competitively. That's a good winrate, so keep up the good job 😉

 

[July-2023 Movement Discussion]

16 hours ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

You talk as if Slowbro regen is really broken, or as if he could do something against Night Slash or Leaf Blade Gallade

Slowbro regen would completely murder the tier lmao.

People have absolutely no idea how absolutely broken slowbro regen is.

[[OU Discussion] Gallade]

Whoever implies regen Poke like slowbro aren't enough to contain Gallade need to re-evaluate all their competitive knowledge. 

 

Slowbro would not only absolutely destroy Gallade but also the whole tier we currently have. 

[[OU Discussion] Gallade]

4 hours ago, Frag said:

You answered yourself. Like you said, rotom, chomp, etc they can do everything, while gallade having none of those qualities and being predectible as you said has higher winrate that all the mons you named. 
Also, 1% charizard usage doesn't mean anything.

I am honestly not against the idea of winrate being an important factor, but I absolutely despise how it has been used for years when it is convenient, and outright ignored when it is not. 

 

 

Not too long ago, P-z was banned because it shared higher than acceptable usage and winrates (Amongst other things). I don't disagree with the argument, but turns out shaymin has consistently seen better usage and winrates (And arguable the most insane numbers we had ever seen recently), and no one bats an eye.

Rotom-wash had maintained better statistics than Gallade in a tier where it was arguably broken (Before Amoonguss had access to regen), however, those were deemed irrelevant for some reason. 

For the past few months Amoonguss had insane winrates coupled with abover average usages, both better than Gallade's, but it was fine.

 

So, is Gallade broken? I don't know. But if we want to use winrate as a factor, then we should consistently use it as a factor, regardless of a pokemon, and regardless of how convenient it is. If we do that, then lots of other things are higher in that priority bracket that Gallade is. There are lots of ways to argue how problematic Gallade is, but winrate is not one of them, unless of course we also use it for everything else.

 

And besides, Rotom has almost twice the usage of Gallade right now. Due to the way our winrate is displayed, skewed by mirror matches, the difference between both's winrates isn't that significant to properly claim Gallade has a true better winrate than Rotom.

[[OU Discussion] Gallade]

45 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Potential sets:

Doesn't need much other than 4 moves and a life orb or scarf, swords dance is just greedy but likely effective with AV

More effective with Bulk up tbh

[[OU Discussion] Gallade]

9 hours ago, ArtOfKilling said:

P2 Bold beats mixed Dnite if it's max hp, whether you tell me it comes on rocks and draco meteor then thats a different case.
92 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 86-101 (44.7 - 52.6%)

252+ SpA Life Orb Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 94-110 (48.9 - 57.2%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO 

 

Since you mentioned infernape then i'll reply to mixed infernape, Unless you are talking about Grass Knot set which then gets completely walled by Chandelure.

CB Ape gets destroyed by Impish Rocky Garchomp 

116 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 78-94 (37.6 - 45.4%) -- 52% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 

 

 

You have Calm Unaware clef for nasty plot Hydreigon

Milotic,Empoleon for Taunt Hydreigon

AV Mienshao and Tyranitar for Hydreigon Aswell.

 

1- I am very confused. Why are you claiming Bold p2 counters dnite, but then proceed to share a calc where it proves it does not?

 

2- CB ape isn't destroyed by Impish Garchomp. In fact, it has a very high chance of just 2hko through it whout chomp ever being able to hit back

 

3- All of those lose for Superpower Taunt Hydreigon, which is a valid set, except Mienshao, which is irrelevant because it is in the tier for a relatively short time, meaning it didn't exist in a time where Hydreigon still had access to the same wallbreaking capabilities without being deemed uber worthy.

[May 2023 Lack of Tier Changes/Discussion thread]

Adding to what gb said. Having such dramatic difference between the first 2 months and the third makes the system very prone to drop or to rise Pokemon that, for some reason, had an high or low unnatural usage spike in that third month, as well as locking it into the new tier for 3 more months, only to just come back to the tier he was before once again, pretty much rendering any adaptation process the tier has undergone potentially moot.

 

But the real question is: Why is nothing done about this? Worse. Why is everything being dismissed about this? Suggestions were given, but no effort into looking and discussing at them was done. What is so important about this mess that you absolutely refuse to get it changed? 

[May 2023 Lack of Tier Changes/Discussion thread]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:50 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Unfortunately i need to disagree. Now that tiers are frozen, they can analyze the threats on tiers, without risk of getting bombs on meta again.

They can analyze as much as they want a frozen tier.

But once 20 or so threats drop all at once because how flawed the current system is, every and any analysis they have concluded is ultimately irrelevant because the new tier with all those 20 or so threats is pretty much a complete different tier than the one they have supposedly analyzed.

[[OU Discussion] Gallade]

8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I agree with this a lot. The problem is that, historically in this game, testing lasts way longer in OU. It took 8 months to get something done about Garchomp. It took roughly the same amount of time with Serperior. It took even longer to get rid of Snorlax in gen 3. 

Sadly yes. I admit I overlooked this quite a bit.

Ideally we would fight against them being so apathic to actually actively change stuff once it has been accepted. Could we do it? Probs not, but I want to at least fight that lazy design.

[[OU Discussion] Gallade]

Having an higher chance of setting crits is ultimately irrelevant to the Gallade discussion in whether it may or may not be Uber offensive. An increased crit rate has 12.5% odds. If this was any relevant, so would be virtually every rng move, and we would be calling every Pokemon that can carry Ice beam Uber offensive because it has a 10% freeze, which is objectively far superior than a 12.5% crit. 

 

Having no counters by itself doesn't mean a Pokemon is Uber offensive either. Just because you are comfortable with 80% of teams being heavy stall that just have to hard switch on whatever comes, neglecting any sort of balance whatsoever, doesn't mean that's how it should be, Also, Gallade isn't the only Pokemon that has no answers.

 

But if this doesn't necessarily mean a Pokemon is Uber offensive, what does? Nothing in particular, but rather a set of different characteristics the pokemon may possess. How often can it come to pressure things? How safe can it shift momentum, even against walls? How risky is it if you fail a prediction and how often is the user forced to predict right? 

Those are the questions you should try to answer if you want to convince anyone else of what is right in your head. 

 

Otherwise, Mixed Dnite would have to be banned. It can't be answered properly. Otherwise, Mixed Garchomp would also have to be banned prior to Gliscor having access to its HA. Why is Gallade any different? Is it just because it is a complete new Pokemon in the tier and you are terrified of at least trying to adapt to it? Is it because it may and it will disrupt the teams you have built so you have to rebuild them and you don't want? Who cares. Adaptation happens, accept it. 

 

Adaptation is important, and that is something that has yet to happen here. I would understand if a thread was made one month from now, but it hasn't even been a week. Why? Because it is Uber offensive? Why? Because if it predicts right it has no answers? Then ban other stuff (And having no answers is even a much more serious issue in lower tiers, but I won't digress). In a game that inherently has a delay in how it adapts to new stuff due to how breeding and building works, in a game that can take several months to actually see visible change to stuff implemented, are you telling me a less than a week old test was enough to tell you whatever?

 

If you asked me if Gallade sharpness should be implemented I'd say no. But now that it is here and has already exhausted player's resources, it deserves at the very least a testing period. 1 month? 2 months? I don't know. But definitely not less than a week.

 

Now, to answer my own question. How consistently can Gallade actually be on the field and safely spam their stabs? Not very consistently. It doesn't have many switch-ins in the meta, which means it won't be pressuring often, and most of all, it is absolutely incapable of blindly spamming their stab moves, since both of them are immuned and resisted by lots of Pokemon. Gallade is also forced to predict their stabs so to accomplish anything relevant, and even worse, it is often forced to rely on weaker coverage moves to deal with potential switches. This is not Uber offensive to me, or at least not immediately. 

 

I'm not done yet. I've been reading some "arguments" here and I am trying to understand how in the world is anyone supposed to change their minds by reading them. 

- Gallade is faster than most walls - Great. An offensive Pokemon is faster than walls. Superb. Is this our new metric for being uber worthy? Have we reached so low that we no longer want our walls to comfortably deal with any and every threat but we also want our walls to be faster than them? Wtf?

- Gallade has the strongest psychic physical stab - Great. Tyranitar also now has the strongest rock special stab. Please ban it. (Does it sound dumb? Good, cause it should)

- blah blah blah crit blah blah blah - Amazing. Ban every tri attack user. Ban every ice beam user. And don't forget Togekiss. Ban it too.

 

See what happens when you don't elaburate further in your "arguments"? When you don't explain what is in your mind that makes you believe something is a problem? All of this may sound right in your head, but by not explaining why it does so you can't convince those who do not see it the same way.

 

But I am not saying Gallade isn't a problem. Actually, I personally think it can be. But why should be my opinion valued higher than a proper test conducted? There is a massive difference between discussing a Pokemon that already was in the tier at full or at least close to full power, in where you can safely say it shouldn't come back, and a brand new Pokemon that has never seen the tier it now is in.

 

Test it. If it remains a glaring problem after the tier has visibly adapted, then you can properly discuss it.

 

 

 

 

 

TLDR; None. Go read it all.

[NU Tier Discussion Request Thread]

On 4/30/2023 at 4:25 PM, DoubleJ said:

Some calls for Quagsire and Gastrodon to move up just because of hazards. That's silly. Be happy these blobs won't carry Toxic anymore unless they sacrifice their already scarce coverage in EQ/EP, Scald, or Ice Beam. 

 

They'll likely rise by usage anyways and if usage is wicked high, we'll move 'em up before the next season (since we're giving a try to 3 month movements).

This logic foils to itself.

If people replace older moves for the new hazards, then the hazards make it a better Pokemon. Since Quagsire is already a very dominant wall in the tier, it is more than understandable that it should be at least discussed.

[NU Tier Discussion Request Thread]

@ArtOfKillingMy bro. You should stop making too much sense. This is the wrong game for it.

[April 2023 Movement Discussion Thread]

14 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Sounds like folks in the community would be ok with Salamence being tested in UU then.

? I see quite the opposite

14 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Moxie doesn't seem to be that big an issue.

Moxie never was the issue. Mixed set was, and nothing changed in the tier to stop that one set.

 

15 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Only counter argument was not having Mamoswine available

Only? How is it the only, and what have you discussed, if you have discussed at all. Transparency please.

15 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

but that might lead to increased usage of Vanilluxe, Sneasel, or even Piloswine as quick checks for an offensive variant. Not sure how realistic that is, but could be seen. 

If by any chance any of these irrelevant things rise because of Salamence alone, then it goes to show how centralizing this beast is. Plus, Sneasel and Vanilluxe are completely useless in a tier where Empoleon is one of the most common Pokemon used. Lastly, none of those 3 are able to switch against Salamence, no matter what the situation is. 

[April 2023 Movement Discussion Thread]

This can't be real. The tier is completely dominated by Empoleon/shaymin/P2 and Crobat, all of them have been maintaining an absurdly high winrate as well as insane usage. How in the goddamn hell are people complaining about Crawdaunt, a Pokemon that has been rendered so irrelevant with the latest changes that it has 49,71% winrate. 

Wow. Just wow. There are plenty of things much more important to discuss and to focus on that Crawdaunt.

[April 2023 Movement Discussion Thread]

26 minutes ago, Zokuru said:

I don't know what happened back then but I know one thing : " Defensive / Offensive Uber " shouldn't be the primary way a tiering policy should happen.

 

Obviously some Pokemon cannot be taken down or cannot be stopped and therefore ruin a metagame, but not all banworthy Pokemon are that extrem.

 

It happens plenty a time that a Pokemon is a the limit of both which I think might be the case for p2. I will try to explain it by giving grades to what a Pokemon can do, and I'll explain the terms before.

 

Offensive Uber caracteristics will refer to the ability of forcing your opponent to have a selected few specific wall to be able to prevent you from making progress, as well as putting pressure on your opponent (= forcing them to respond to your Pokemon, it's especially good when it's difficult to pivot around it, either because it hits too hard or because it's not really threatened by anything you will send )

 

Defensive Uber caracteristics will refer to the ability of preventing your opponent from doing meaningfull progress and shutting down lots of offensive Pokemons for basically free without decent counterplay being offered to your opponent.

 

Now let's use the P2 example for it :

Discharge , Ice Beam, Toxic, Recover.

 

We all know the crazy p2 defensive abilities to shut down a lot of offensive threats, but it have trouble healing properly due to the recover nerf and the lack of leftovers, it's weak against volturn cores, really hates entry hasards and statuts.

If I had to rate it on 1-10 scale defensively  (1 sucking and 10 being top tier, 11 is banworthy) I would probably rate it a good 8 or 9 because those weaknesses are not so hard to compensate but what it brings to a team in preventing your opponents breakers to make progress is insane.

 

Now offensively, really what comes into it ? More or less nothing, however we have to take into account that it's slow and that statusing threats will often pressure it out of the field, also it might have to click Recover a lot so give you a lot of free turns, obviously those problems aren't so hard to make up for but they prevent it from being unstoppable offensively. Let's say it's also a high 8 or 9 rate.

 

We have something that's top class in both offensive and defensive capabilities without changing the set, which offensive capabilities will be enabled by the fact that you pair it in a team defensively sound, thus giving it very good defensive options AND the little offense it needs. I think everyone can agree that the Off/Def Uber criterias aren't met to make a ban, however it's obvious that the pokemon is way too good for the tier.

 

Tiering policy should probably be changed following this situation to represent more accurately what a broken Pokemon really is in a metagame, I think making a third category labelled " really good in both " wouldn't do it either. Tiering policy should label PRECISELY what is banworthy and what's not and not just throw up categories and call it a day because it leads to stupid discussions in which everyone is losing time for nothing.

Beautifully put. Thanks

 

[April 2023 Movement Discussion Thread]

11 hours ago, gbwead said:

Let me make it clear for both of you:
 

This post is extremely wrong and stupid. When a mon is suspected to have OFFENSIVE UBER characteristics, you should look at the walls it breaks. 

I promised myself I wouldn't reply to you anymore, but since I was kinda at fault here, I'll have to.

 

You are right. When a mon is suspected as offensive uber, you should look at the wall it breaks. I am sorry if, in my needless sarcasm, I lost clarity and went to focus on something I didn't want to focus at all. What I meant is that posting random calcs without any context whatsoever tells me nothing. If it did, some other wallbreakers would be offensive uber too. They are not. Why? Maybe because they cannot pressure the field often. Maybe because they cannot shift momentum against those walls it is supposed to beat, in a reliable or consistent way. Or maybe even they require such insane amounts of prediction to work. None of this is immediately proven or disproven by a bunch of calcs. 

 

Do I think Nidoqueen is an issue? Yes. 

Do I convince anyone of that with a random carefully picked list of calcs? No.

Calcs are supposed to support any argument. Not to be the argument. 

 

Again, I am sorry, if I went over my head with this particular subject and deviated from what I really wanted to claim.

11 hours ago, gbwead said:

With that being said, @pachima, you can't really complain that Wrath is wrong to look at defensive mons as counters to a potential defensive uber pokemon because 
1) you did the exact same thing in your previous paragraph when an offensive pokemon was being looked at

2) you fucked up royally when you were TC and banned P2 as offensive uber instead of simply defensive uber

You can't cast stones at people when you are showing the worst example of what should not be done. You can't blame new TC members for not understanding our tiering terms correctly when you have set an awful precedent when using them in the past.

1- Explained above.

2- This is only true in your head. However, since I unfortunately cannot convince you otherwise, I'll just leave it at that. 

Either way, to clarify, and I don't give a damn to whether you choose to believe in it or you don't, I was actually one of the very few people that was against, and explicitely argued so in TC, that in the P2 ban argument, we shouldn't label it as anything, simply because I didn't believe it correctly fit any of the nonsense labels we had at the moment. Was it offensive uber? No. Was it Defensive Uber? Maybe, but not quite, since its main problem wasn't really being able to switch on most things but also pressure and punish to extreme levels Offensive teams. For this reason, if it depended on me, I wouldn't label P2 as anything, and would just create a thread, trying to explain why this mon was too strong for the tier instead. 

 

I will let you take a wild guess to whoever forced us to imprint a label on anything we were voting at the time, for absolutely no reason at all.

 

And for God sake don't even mention the PZ issue you are apparently so delusional in your created lie you refuse to let go, because I have better things to waste my time on. Thank you. 

[April 2023 Movement Discussion Thread]

Damn. A wallbreaker beats walls. Who would have thought? In other news, water is wet. (Except Volcanion. It's a gas)

What are these calcs supposed to show? That Nidoqueen, a wallbreaker, indeed breaks walls? How does it do against Offense? How easily can it actually shift momentum versus those walls? How easily can it exert pressure on offensive threats?

Maybe Nidoqueen is indeed busted, but these calcs tell me absolutely nothing except that a wallbreak is really able to break walls.

 

Next. Why are you obliged to follow the usage, at all, when the tiers are a mess, when UU is in such a chaotic place that it lost 10 different Pokemon to NU in the span of 2 months? Why are you dropping anything at all, independently of how busted or not it is? What about let the tiers stabilize even in the slightest before just collapse everything at once, for no reason other than to further kill these lower tiers? 

 

Will you fix it? No, you won't. Otherwise, you'd start now, which is fairly obvious you aren't doing. You keep pushing responsibilities for the next month. It has been almost half an year where NU and UU are at their lowest points ever, only second to when Dugtrio was allowed in NU. Are you expecting to accomplish, by just nuking 5-6 different things at the same time, that by some divine miracle, it fixes the tier? 

Even worse than that. Half of these things that are about to potentially drop, please take a closer look at what they are, are all a direct influence to the sudden rise of Toxicroak in UU, mostly due to both Feraligatr and Crawdaunt gaining access to their HA. 

 

Finally, why are people in this game consistently mentioning defensive answers to potentially uber defensive walls? What in hell is this argument? A Pokemon cannot be uber defensive, because it is walled ???????????????????????? Excuse me, what? I don't care what defensive answers deny a defensive threat, not even in the slightest. I care how many offensive Pokemon that defensive thread handles, how many it doesn't, in what circumstances it does and does not. Unfortunately it is not the first time a defensive behemoth that completely centralizes the tier is deemed fine just because other defensive pokemon handle it. 

 

Is Vaporeon indeed uber defensive? I don't know, and after reading your justification, I know the exact jackass nothing, except that another defensive Pokemon handles it??? Justifying a defensive threat by not even speaking about offense is, by itself, laughable in way too many ways. (Oh, and I can't wait for the : B-but Sceptile and Eel handle it. Nice. 2 out of how many?)

 

Note I am not necessarily against or for some specific decisions. I am against the fact people are unable to actually come up with their decisions, and think it is wiser to just come up with random nonsense facts that have nothing to do with their arguments, just to show they are clueless to whatever they talk about. 

 

Tierings aside. Can we really just ignore usage for the time being and stop murdering NU for no reason other than to feel obliged to follow a policy that has been outdated ever since 1535?

 

End of rant. Thanks for putting up with my bs.

[[Writing Contest] Favourite Pokemon Edition! (January 30th-February 28th)]

congratulations @Gunthug. Solid winner.

And congratulations for everyone else who got something.

Thanks @Shadow for this beautiful thing, and for the other judges who had to evaluate so many entries.

Props for the explicit point system as well 🙂

 

Next one when? 

[April 2023 Movement Discussion Thread]

Yes. Drop Cloyster-Vaporeon-Gastrodon-Tentacruel at the same month Toxicroak goes to OU. 

Because it is inconceivable they will just be used again in UU after that, thus leaving NU in a completely unnecessary chaos for a few months for absolutely no reason other than spending a few minutes discussing the actual Pokemon you are dropping.

 

Also, why isnt Salamence Gatekeept from UU for the time being. UU is in absolute chaos. Instead of just dropping another huge bomb to the tier, why don't you actually realize what is wrong with it in the first place before proceeding with unnecessary big changes?

 

Having updates is a terrible excuse for why tiers are how they are right now. Updates are irrelevant, when you have the power to gatekeep whatever you want. 

 

Finally, why the hell are we still using usage system in lower tiers? Even worse, Why are we still using 4,36 marks for those tiers? You have literally dropped 4 Pokemon to NU last month, reshaping the tier that is yet to adapt to it, but we are now looking to drop 6 more, because why not? Because a few months ago NU had stable 13k matches monthly, but apparently that was too good so we better ruin it as well to the point of dropping it to below 10k. Doesn't it strike you as a huge flaw in UU, when for the first time ever UU just dropped 10 different Pokemon to NU in just 2 months? No, of course not. Let's just keep dropping stuff as well as dropping other stuff to UU every month and blame it to the devs that are just adding new stuff to the game, instead of actually taking action and actually make tiers enjoybale for as long as possible. But this isn't a game at all apparently. What matters is we have fun in 2035 when tiers are stabilized.

 

Jesus hell. Enough is enough. This is the absolute worst lower tiers have ever been ever since ladder update, and yet we have not a single word of what is being done to attempt to fix it. Instead, just drop new stuff and blindly follow the usages, because that is the easiest approach for everything in this game.

 

 

[LCPL 3 Players Sign-ups]

• IGN: Deffonotpachima
• Preferred Tiers: Any
  • Competitive accolades (optional, although it certainly increases your chances of getting picked): I usually perform good in forum pvp events
• Discord contact: Dumbino #3152
• Fluff: 🙂
• Preferred/Least Preferred Potential Manager: Idc

[UU Tier Discussion Request Thread]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

expected.

 

How about shaymin? Like, people claimed that this mon would be broken on UU. It is really broken or not?

First things first. UU is broken. We have 3 Pokemon above 56% winrate. 2 of which above 20% usage. This is unprecedented outside of non-tiers, and should strike as an obvious flaw considering we both are counting mirror matches, dropping down the actual winrate, and that people were complaining PZ was broken when it was nowhere the combination of these 2 numbers.

I still think Shaymin is broken, but the tier is so fragmented in an unbalanced way that is completely nonsense to just discuss multiple things at once, and P2 just needs to go asap first.

[UU Tier Discussion Request Thread]

38 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Please take pory2 back to OU where it belongs, I don't wanna make another long post about how it can switch in on half of the tier and then hit really fukn hard with hax attack/ coverage or w/e, all that has been said about it during previous discussion still applies

You dont like a tier where a mon that has over 25% usage has 57%+ winrate despite this number being dropped down due to mirror matches?

[[PSL XV] PokeMMO Super League Season 15 - General Thread]

4 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

or what?

or you die.

[Boost UU]

I disagree. Even after Randoms were implemented, UU had a somewhat nice influx of games in the past. (27k games monthly at some point)

One of the worst NU metas, for instance, had less than 5k games monthly (While dugtrio was in), and after it was banned, thus freeing the whole metagame, games quickly shot up to over twice that amount, to a steady 12-13k per month, which sadly have dropped already because nothing has been done in the tier since then.

 

It's fairly obvious the problem isn't the rewards or whatsoever, otherwise people wouldn't have played in the past, or wouldn't play OU right now. The problem is that tiers are a mess, and there has been no effort into making them satisfying to play again, which, of course, is reflected in the numbers.

Boosting rewards doesn't solve the actual problem, and is more of a quick-short-term bandaid, that will ultimately result in nothing at all. 

While certain people refuse to do anything about it, and opt to go blind about this mess, because of laziness, the problem won't go away.

It has been proved so many times in the past that a more satisfying meta will result in more monthly matches, that I absolutely have no idea why people insist its a reward issue, and I have even less of a clue why other people believe nothing can be done, or nothing should be done. 

[March 2023 Movement Discussion]

6 minutes ago, Eipott said:

You just took a pory 2 with Download proc and argueing that it denies Offensive Teams completely because you can switch in into it?

 

First of all it doesn't proc download in every scenario.

 

If you take this argument the other way around, Pory2 can't switch into a lot of Offensive Mons.

Yanmega can 2HKO P2 with a little bit of chip damage (even rocks are enough with high rolls).

 

Toxicroak straight up OHKos with CC on switch in and 2HKOs with other sets.

 

Bisharp 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed in revenge.

 

Cloyster can setup on switch in and survive with sash and Band cloyster can 2HKO P2 on switch. (Even with Jolly)
252 Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 95-120 (49.4 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO

 

Crawdaunt 2HKOs with every move but aqua jet on switch in.

 

Blastoise 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed after first attack (I mean obviously it will get para, but thats not the point).

The Nido and Machamp Calcs are pretty obvious on this one.

Of Course Pory2 can cause trouble for offensive Mons if it gets the Download Boost, but it cant recover in the attacking turn which means that it gets chipped by many offensive mons and forced out afterwards.

That's not how it works. 

Porygon2 can usually afford being on the field on stall teams because stall teams are, by definition, meant to keep switching. This means that eventually p2 will be on field. What happens when P2 is on the field? Offense is forced to lose a mon. 

What happens next? 

Stall will just keep switching over and over again until P2 is on the field again.

Is this valid the other way around? No. Because offense isnt meant to keep switching. It is meant to keep exerting pressure. Offense is meant to keep shifting momentum. Usually, against stall, this is very possible, since most Pokemon there are very passive, thus balancing the two styles. However, P2 just ignores all this and says: No, you won't have momentum, and you will lose a Pokemon. It doesn't matter if you can then revenge kill me because my team is meant to switch into whatever you send again, and yours is not. 

TLDR; Shifting momentum offensively is the only way Offense can deal with more defensive playstyles, and P2 completely denies them of all that.