September-2022 Movement Discussion Thread

[Munya]

As stated at the beginning of the season, this season has 4.36% cutoffs, as such the following things are going to be moving unless any bans occur to prevent them from happening, if you have concerns, make them heard, allowing for a longer discussion period this month(starting the thread 2 days early) given all the movements.

 

To OU:

Ludicolo

Espeon

Empoleon

 

Banned to BL1 from UU:
Porygon-Z

 

To UU:

Golbat

Weezing

 

Quickbanned to BL2:

Rhyperior

 

To NU from UU:

Absol

Alakazam

Gligar

Tentacruel

[Imperial]

Out of curiosity will any of these be suspect tested in NU?

• Rhyperior (there were discussions around banning this but it ended up going to UU based on usage, although the meta was different then)
• Alakazam (while it doesn't have its HA, of course)

I know a lot of people are against an instant ban (e.g. Electrode), so I was wondering if this was a fair compromise?

[Munya]

Don't take this as gospel no formal vote has been had yet, but from what I have heard from people so far within the TC, rhyperior seems pretty heavily favored for a a ban currently, and there is concern about zam but they seem open to the idea of testing it

[Poufilou]

With Empoleon gone, will TC finally ban PZ ?

[Imperial]

1 hour ago, Munya said:

Don't take this as gospel no formal vote has been had yet, but from what I have heard from people so far within the TC, rhyperior seems pretty heavily favored for a a ban currently, and there is concern about zam but they seem open to the idea of testing it

That's great, thank you.

 

My personal opinion is that both are currently too threatening for the tier, and if I were to quick ban one, it would be Rhyperior and not Alakazam (as an offensive styled player I love both).

 

Won't go into calcs unless needed, but I'm pretty sure Rhyperior can withstand hits from almost every physical attacking mon (except leaf blade gallade) while dealing a huge amount of damage or KO in return (even seed bomb ambipom does not instantly KO Rhyperior unless chipped enough) making it quite centralising for offensive style play (similar to Porygon-Z in UU).

 

On the top of my head the set I would run with Rhyperior is - Substitute/Rock Blast , Smack Down , Swords Dance , Earthquake (could also run Ice Punch/Thunder Punch to deal with Gligar and Mantine/Slowking) switch ins.

 

Its ability to smack down can heavily pressure mons like Bronzor, Rotom (if it runs lum berry it can avoid burn) and then potentially set up freely on Gligar.

 

The main drawback is that it's not the fastest and has a x4 weakness to grass/water, with mixed blaziken, water types and eelektross being able to handle it fairly comfortably (maybe we'll also see the return of more defensive rotoms with will'o'wisp).

 

Tangrowth would be Rhyperior's strongest check / counter.

 

Alakazam I've previously discussed my concerns on a previous thread, an amazing wallbreaker, and if the next list of HAs do get introduced and Alakazam gets Magic Guard, this would likely become OU instantly so doesn't make sense to drop this down just for the sake of a few weeks.

 

P.S. Someone please correct me for any misinformation about Rhyperior, but I remember it being too strong from a physical side and that's where my concern is considering most offensive threats in NU are physical based.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Imperial

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, Munya said:

To OU from UU:

Ludicolo

Espeon

Empoleon

 

To UU from NU:

Golbat

Weezing

 

To NU from UU:

Absol

Alakazam

Gligar

Rhyperior

Tentacruel

Not targetting anyone, just quoting the information.

 

Our usage system is just horrible. The UU metagame has developped for the past 2 months around the latest update features (Empoleon Roost, Espeon Magic Bounce, Machamp Drain/Bullet Punch, etc.). All the UU/NU movements are in direct response to that UU development that is now thrown out the window with the departure of Empoleon and Espeon. How can we possibly justify 7 usage movements based on data that is now obsolete. It doesn't make sense to have UU/NU movements happen at the same time as OU/UU movements. We always end up in these situations awful situations:

• Heracross goes up to OU, next month Gligar falls to NU, next month Heracross returns to UU, next month Gligar returns to UU.
• Jellicent going up to OU at the same time as Azumarill goes down to NU. It's not a surprise that Azumarill returns to UU the following month after its biggest check leaves the tier.

It's plain stupid to have all this yoyoing going on. Tiers are supposed to reflect what is currently going on in each metagame and that's not what is going on in PokeMMO. There are countless solutions to this issue that have been documented, analysed and discussed over the past years. Please just change this awful system already. Any system that will desynchronise 1) OU/UU usage movements & UU/NU usage movements and 2) move up & move down cutoff points will solve the problem. It's really simple and requires 0 work for staff. 

[Quinn010]

will porygonz get banned or will uu suffer more from the worst meta possible ?

@Munyayou still have 4days left i hope you do something for once faster...

Edited August 26, 2022 by Quinn010

[suigin]

remove raises

[gbwead]

If Alakazam becomes NU by usage when Espeon gains Magic Bounce, is it possible that, once Espeon leaves UU, Alakazam returns back UU? Could the same anology be made with Tentacruel and Empoleon gaining Roost and therefore gaining usage? 

 

I understand these pokemons have a lot of differences that sets them apart, but I do think they were similar enough that no one would think of pairing up Espeon and Alakazam in the same team. And I think the same goes to a lesser degree with Empoleon and Tentacruel. 

 

I feel both Alakazam and Tentacruel lost viability in UU and it's hard to tell what is the root cause, but I wouldn't be surprise to see these yoyo back to UU in the near future.

 

Also, I know that Tentacruel was OU at first and just arrived recently in UU. There is a good chance UU Tentacruel is just not meant to be.

Edited August 26, 2022 by gbwead

[bingonb]

Ban Alakazam, Tentacruel and Rhyperior from NU pls. The World Cup begins in September, so we don't have a month to sus them. And I agree with gbwead. We need the nubl tier. The coming of Alakazam and Rhyperior must be a disaster for NU tier.

[bingonb]

6小时前，Imperial 说：

Tangrowth would be Rhyperior's strongest check / counter.

oh sry. my Rhyperior's moves are sword dance, stone edge, earthquake and megahorn. And I think there is nothing to battle with Rhyperior.

[JasonSparrowX]

I agree that it will be a disaster the drop of ryperior and alakazam for nu, uu is currently a disaster, being realistic they are not going to give us stability when on top of all this they put hidden abilities little by little... at any moment they put another one and the levels will destabilize again...

 

[Makarovs]

10 minutes ago, bingonb said:

Ban Alakazam, Tentacruel and Rhyperior from NU pls. The World Cup begins in September, so we don't have a month to sus them. And I agree with gbwead. We need the nubl tier. The coming of Alakazam and Rhyperior must be a disaster for NU tier.

Agreed with Alakazam and Rhyperior, but whats the problem with Tentacruel?

[DoubleJ]

I'm pretty excited about the changes. Probably inevitable with all of the HA action happening. Stay tuned. 

[Thenavarro]

Ban  Porygon Z

[xStarr]

Rhyperior: Insta ban

Alakazam: Test it out. Don't think it has much opportunities to be A/S tier and isn't much threatening to the tier. 

 

[Umbramol]

ban porygon Z. its most viable check has left the tier. we cant be playing sand just to stop porygonZ. it becomes too centralising now with the even more limited checks with empoleon gone. it shouldnt even be tested. its plain and simple

[Sebat]

My opinion to NU

• Absol 50-50 it's a very good sweeper but it's controllable with priorities from Hitmos, checks like Steelix/Poliwrath/Escavalier/etc
• Gligar and Tentacruel are not too strongs imo, since NU doesnt have a lot of Spinner/Defoger, could have a place in the meta
• Alakazam and Rhyperior were already tested in NU and being honestly the NU meta is not too different since that time, just ban them
• Also NU without Golbat/Weezing, Sceptile sd set with unnerve would be a big threat to keep it in supect test

[Imperial]

19 minutes ago, Sebat said:

My opinion to NU

• Absol 50-50 it's a very good sweeper but it's controllable with priorities from Hitmos, checks like Steelix/Poliwrath/Escavalier/etc
• Gligar and Tentacruel are not too strongs imo, since NU doesnt have a lot of Spinner/Defoger, could have a place in the meta
• Alakazam and Rhyperior were already tested in NU and being honestly the NU meta is not too different since that time, just ban them
• Also NU without Golbat/Weezing, Sceptile sd set with unnerve would be a big threat to keep it in supect test

Absol was already threatening in the tier, a very strong mon but managable.

 

I would instantly ban Rhyperior from NU and suspect test Alakazam for a month or until the next batch of HAs come out. Gligar and Tentacruel are fine.

 

Sceptile will definitely be really strong, there'll probably be more Bronzor and Escavalier (assuming no hp fire) used as a potential check. 

 

Also any idea when the suspect tests for Feraligatr and Machamp will end? They're both definitely really strong, but I don't think enough to be banned (I was originally thinking Feraligatr was though).

[gbwead]

Vullaby incoming with 15% usage xD

[caioxlive13]

10 hours ago, gbwead said:

Not targetting anyone, just quoting the information.

 

Our usage system is just horrible. The UU metagame has developped for the past 2 months around the latest update features (Empoleon Roost, Espeon Magic Bounce, Machamp Drain/Bullet Punch, etc.). All the UU/NU movements are in direct response to that UU development that is now thrown out the window with the departure of Empoleon and Espeon. How can we possibly justify 7 usage movements based on data that is now obsolete. It doesn't make sense to have UU/NU movements happen at the same time as OU/UU movements. We always end up in these situations awful situations:

• Heracross goes up to OU, next month Gligar falls to NU, next month Heracross returns to UU, next month Gligar returns to UU.
• Jellicent going up to OU at the same time as Azumarill goes down to NU. It's not a surprise that Azumarill returns to UU the following month after its biggest check leaves the tier.

It's plain stupid to have all this yoyoing going on. Tiers are supposed to reflect what is currently going on in each metagame and that's not what is going on in PokeMMO. There are countless solutions to this issue that have been documented, analysed and discussed over the past years. Please just change this awful system already. Any system that will desynchronise 1) OU/UU usage movements & UU/NU usage movements and 2) move up & move down cutoff points will solve the problem. It's really simple and requires 0 work for staff. 

And we can't forgot the resistance of Tier Council and devs to accept suggestions for community.
Some examples:

• Alakazam not being tested on Never Used, even if Espeon gets their HA and in the 12 days(5 on reality because 7 days are on a middle of event, that don't have any matches on UU/NU/Doubles),  Espeon doesn't broke the NU, even if community agree that espeon is a Better version of zam thanks to it's ability Magic Bounce. 
• Electrode simply being insta-banned from Never Used, and doesn't receive a simple suspect test to see if he are too broken.
• Porygon-Z not being banned on UU, and just any people read the topic to see people asking their ban.

 

Also, i want to ask to staff to change Suspect test voting system. Instead of only Tier council votes, place some requirments in table(like: People must have won a tournament on this year, or specific amount of elo.) and allow everyone that fulfill the requirments, vote.

[Munya]

1 hour ago, Imperial said:

Also any idea when the suspect tests for Feraligatr and Machamp will end? They're both definitely really strong, but I don't think enough to be banned (I was originally thinking Feraligatr was though).

Haven't asked about Feraligatr but last time I asked about Machamp they wanted to leave it up longer due to all the big shifts we've been having, we haven't really had an accurate test of it with what the tiers will actually look like.

[Huargensy]

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

If Alakazam becomes NU by usage when Espeon gains Magic Bounce, is it possible that, once Espeon leaves UU, Alakazam returns back UU?

Alakazam has been a low-use pokemon since before espeon got HA, and even though it leaves UU, people use it in a different way than alakazam, espeon tends to be more defensive as a hazard rebounder while also serves a wisher user

4 hours ago, bingonb said:

Ban Alakazam, Tentacruel and Rhyperior from NU pls. The World Cup begins in September, so we don't have a month to sus them. And I agree with gbwead. We need the nubl tier. The coming of Alakazam and Rhyperior must be a disaster for NU tier.

I don't know what the problem is with Alakazam to even suggest a quickban, the presence  of dark guys with a chance to eliminate them with sucker punch or chase still exist, new Mons Choice Scarf can even be used to ensure removal, while other Dark Types like Skuntank specially defensive  are able to take a +2 Focus Blast and take it down with a Dark Hit. 

+2 252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skuntank: 261-308 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sableye wall special can also take even a signal beam at +2 and deal a lot of damage with foul play.

 

He also has a problem with his set repertoire, he could use a nasty plot psyshic stab set, focus blast and the last move could vary between substitute to win the mind game vs sucker punch, or signal beam to hit things like slowking or something. sableye , but depending on whether or not he chooses he will end up losing vs a specific scenario. 

 

We also have choice scarf users to be able to hit it hard and eliminate it or press the change

252 Atk Blaziken U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 272-322 (108.3 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Rotom Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Alakazam: 240-284 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Things like ambipom that can pressure the switch or revenge it with fake out or even remove it if they intend to switch with pursuit

We also have an escavalier that can take a +2 focus blast and remove it from iron head/megahorn or a pursuit just in case it changes.

 

 

With that I am not clarifying that this will not become a problem in the future, but that a quickban is something very drastic currently, alakazam looks good as an offensive mon, but on paper it has many flaws, and even rely on a focus blast coverage at presicion 70 is a big deal to guarantee hits.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Huargensy

[TohnR]

I agree with what most of yall posted.
When we argued for PorygonZ to be allowed, UU had P2 Metagross & Empoleon. I don't think it should stay and also don't think anyone can make a valid argument about it staying
I think purely stats wise Rhyperior is too oppressive for NU and would crush the metagame, especially since Feraligatr is gone since last time we tested
I think Alakazam deserves to be tested as it can be answered by both defensive and offensive teams to some extent
 

And I still think Feraligatr & Machamp are oppressive but not to the extent they should be quick banned without discussion 

Edited August 26, 2022 by TohnR
Forgot to say JJ has a very cool signature :muscle:

[bingonb]

8小时前，Makarovs 说：

Agreed with Alakazam and Rhyperior, but whats the problem with Tentacruel?

That's my strategy xd. Because Tentacruel is ok, more people will focus on the banning of Alakazam and Rhyperior.