[OU Discussion] Hydreigon

[Lumiere]

 

What is this?

 

This is a discussion thread for the community to share their opinion about the movement Draco Meteor implemented to Hydreigon, which is making it one of the OU main threats due to its great versatility and destructive power.

 

What to know?

 

Since the addition of Draco Meteor, Hydreigon has become one of the biggest threats in the OU tier. Very few mons can reliably check it due to its amazing movepool and variety of movesets to pick, in addition the destructive damage that does with Draco Meteor. It also got boosted with the addition of Stealth Rock which can make it a great entry hazard setter. It can assume many roles as Sweeper / Speed Control / Entry Hazard and even Wallbreaker. The most noteworthy sets are as below:

 

Noteworthy sets

 

1.- Choice Item (Choice Specs / Choice Scarf)

- Draco Meteor

- Flamethrower

- Dark Pulse / Focus Blast

- U-turn

 

2.- Special Sweeper (Leftovers / Haban Berry)

- Draco Meteor

- Focus Blast / Flamethrower

- Substitute / Stealth Rock

- Nasty Plot

 

3.- Mixed Sweeper (Life Orb / Scope Lens)

- Draco Meteor

- Superpower

- Flamethrower / Roost / Taunt

- Work Up / Focus Energy

 

Damage calculations:

(common spreads in the tier)

 

Vs Offensive:

Spoiler

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 6 SpD Gengar: 135-160 (100 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 6 SpD Starmie: 123-145 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 109-129 (63.7 - 75.4%) 

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 144-171 (105.8 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 109-129 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 65-77 (44.5 - 52.7%) 

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 109-129 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 73-87 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 6 SpD Breloom: 160-189 (118.5 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 59-70 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 6 SpD Infernape: 142-168 (94 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 6 SpD Garchomp: 246-290 (134.4 - 158.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 72-85 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 59-70 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 162-192 (87 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 6 SpD Gallade: 96-114 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 114-135 (75.4 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 75-89 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 153-181 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan: 172-204 (95.5 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 118-139 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 103-123 (63.9 - 76.3%) 

Vs Defensive: 

Spoiler

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 144-171 (69.5 - 82.6%) 
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 125-148 (60.3 - 71.4%) 

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 100 HP / 156 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 130-154 (84.9 - 100.6%) 
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 100 HP / 156 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 113-134 (73.8 - 87.5%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 103-123 (28.8 - 34.4%)
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 90-107 (25.2 - 29.9%) 

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Blissey: 126-148 (34.8 - 40.8%) 
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Blissey: 109-129 (30.1 - 35.6%) 

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 52-63 (25.1 - 30.4%) 
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 44-55 (21.2 - 26.5%) 

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 204-241 (115.9 - 136.9%) 
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 177-211 (100.5 - 119.8%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 133-157 (61 - 72%)
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 114-136 (52.2 - 62.3%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 144-171 (75 - 89%) 
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 125-148 (65.1 - 77%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 186-219 (85.7 - 100.9%) 
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 161-191 (74.1 - 88%) 

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss: 195-229 (88.2 - 103.6%) 
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss: 169-200 (76.4 - 90.4%) 

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 72-84 (39.7 - 46.4%) 
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 62-74 (34.2 - 40.8%) 

Please discuss about this mon and the movement

Be respectful when giving your opinion

Give us ur input!

Edited December 14, 2023 by Lumiere

[bobliu]

I think we can keep the draco meteor of Hydre.

Hydreigon with draco meteor make the meta have much of fun. We can see some mons with assualt vest to check the choice specs hydreigon, such as Mienshao and Tytar, and opponent can use the turn of -2 sp.attack to win the attack opportunity.  But not only use the stall like Chansey or Tentacruel to check the sp.attacker, which we usually see in past days. Also, the plenty of mons which can counter Hydre keep the Hydre not to strong in the meta. Btw, the draco meter haven't destroy the meta this time, compare to two years ago. The meta can accept this change totally.

In addition, the draco meteor of Hydre helps HO team have more chance to break the stall. I am happy to see there is more HO team in the OU meta, since I love HO team.

[Imperial]

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, Draco Meteor is incredibly strong and there are few switch-ins against it, but it also pressurises the increasing amount of defensive/stall teams we've seen in the tier which has made the tier incredibly boring (from what I've seen at least) and encourages people to play more offensively.

 

I feel we should keep it for now, especially since we're not sure what devs are planning to introduce for the anni/christmas updates. 

[MadaraSixSix]

7 hours ago, bobliu said:

I think we can keep the draco meteor of Hydre.

Hydreigon with draco meteor make the meta have much of fun. We can see some mons with assualt vest to check the choice specs hydreigon, such as Mienshao and Tytar, and opponent can use the turn of -2 sp.attack to win the attack opportunity.  But not only use the stall like Chansey or Tentacruel to check the sp.attacker, which we usually see in past days. Also, the plenty of mons which can counter Hydre keep the Hydre not to strong in the meta. Btw, the draco meter haven't destroy the meta this time, compare to two years ago. The meta can accept this change totally.

In addition, the draco meteor of Hydre helps HO team have more chance to break the stall. I am happy to see there is more HO team in the OU meta, since I love HO team.

"In addition, the draco meteor of Hydre helps HO team have more chance to break the stall. I am happy to see there is more HO team in the OU meta, since I love HO team."

shows that the comment is not at all objective

 

yes hydreigon can destroy the stall so a playstyle all by itself 

So that makes him a healthy pokemon because people don't like playing vs stall ?

 

if the pokemon only destroyed the stall that would be fine there are pokemon like that strong against stall, and weak against climate or offense, 

but this is not the case with hydreigon
he is strong against all

 

I personally think that the basic dragon type was already too strong for the meta but then we added Draco Meteor on Hydreigon something which is normal on showdown because the fairy type exists but on Pokemmo our resistance to the dragon type and the steel type then when the moves are physical it can be fine because steel pokemon are generally good in tank phy, but when you have a skarmory or scizor and the hydreigon can click draco meteor without thinking there is a problem

 

I find that having integrated it is stupid despite everything
I'm not even so sure it's broken
just not healty in my opinion

[bobliu]

2 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

"In addition, the draco meteor of Hydre helps HO team have more chance to break the stall. I am happy to see there is more HO team in the OU meta, since I love HO team."

shows that the comment is not at all objective

 

yes hydreigon can destroy the stall so a playstyle all by itself 

So that makes him a healthy pokemon because people don't like playing vs stall ?

 

if the pokemon only destroyed the stall that would be fine there are pokemon like that strong against stall, and weak against climate or offense, 

but this is not the case with hydreigon
he is strong against all

 

I personally think that the basic dragon type was already too strong for the meta but then we added Draco Meteor on Hydreigon something which is normal on showdown because the fairy type exists but on Pokemmo our resistance to the dragon type and the steel type then when the moves are physical it can be fine because steel pokemon are generally good in tank phy, but when you have a skarmory or scizor and the hydreigon can click draco meteor without thinking there is a problem

 

I find that having integrated it is stupid despite everything
I'm not even so sure it's broken
just not healty in my opinion

Yes, I totally agree that dragon type pokemon is strong in the meta, so does the steel type pokemon. The steel type can not only resist dragon type, but also the dark type unlike in showdown meta. But that is not the reason to nerf the steel type pokemon, isn't it? above all are just the features of pokemmo meta.

 

As for the draco meteor on Hydre, i can understand your concern, that the hydre seems like it can always using draco meteor without thinking, due to it is not weak facing pursuit and Stealth Rock. However, there are just too many pokemons which are so good at sp.defense and have the ability of recover(porygon2, Chanse...), so the hydre is not THAT easy to break the stall (i just mean the draco help hydre having more threat facing stall, but it cannot destroy the stall without thinking).

 

Also, the hydre is weak facing most of offensive mons, easpically mons with mach punch, bullet punch, ice shard. This situation make the hydre just not " strong against all" as you mentioned. Btw, the -2 sp.attack of draco also give the opportunity to opponent to strengthen the mons(sword dance/dragon dance/ Quiver Dance..etc) and it may cause the threat of breaking whole team, which means "using darco meteor without thinking" is not appropriate for every situation.

 

To sum up, I would like to give the opinion that hydre with draco may be a big threat of stall team and climate team, but it is not that strong facing offensive team and bulky offensive type pokemon. In addition, many pokemons with AV can check the hydre easily, such as Mienshao. Thus, the hydre with draco meteor can be accepted in mmo meta in my mind.

[MadaraSixSix]

1 hour ago, bobliu said:

Yes, I totally agree that dragon type pokemon is strong in the meta, so does the steel type pokemon. The steel type can not only resist dragon type, but also the dark type unlike in showdown meta. But that is not the reason to nerf the steel type pokemon, isn't it? above all are just the features of pokemmo meta.

 

As for the draco meteor on Hydre, i can understand your concern, that the hydre seems like it can always using draco meteor without thinking, due to it is not weak facing pursuit and Stealth Rock. However, there are just too many pokemons which are so good at sp.defense and have the ability of recover(porygon2, Chanse...), so the hydre is not THAT easy to break the stall (i just mean the draco help hydre having more threat facing stall, but it cannot destroy the stall without thinking).

 

Also, the hydre is weak facing most of offensive mons, easpically mons with mach punch, bullet punch, ice shard. This situation make the hydre just not " strong against all" as you mentioned. Btw, the -2 sp.attack of draco also give the opportunity to opponent to strengthen the mons(sword dance/dragon dance/ Quiver Dance..etc) and it may cause the threat of breaking whole team, which means "using darco meteor without thinking" is not appropriate for every situation.

 

To sum up, I would like to give the opinion that hydre with draco may be a big threat of stall team and climate team, but it is not that strong facing offensive team and bulky offensive type pokemon. In addition, many pokemons with AV can check the hydre easily, such as Mienshao. Thus, the hydre with draco meteor can be accepted in mmo meta in my mind.

the dragon type is the strongest in the meta and is in no way comparable to the steel type (Do I really need to elaborate here?)

 

However, there are just too many pokemons which are so good at sp.defense and have the ability of recover(porygon2, Chanse...) and you say two pokemon ? 

for the spec i agreed chansey and blissy counter ez hydreigon spec, 

but in a real match if you switch porygon 2 you have to recover and therefore give the opponent time if you dare to click ice beam or toxic or disharge for example you will not be able to return to the hydreigon

 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 90-106 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

if hydreigon clik focus blast its possible 252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 110-130 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

moreover the pokemon already there are only 2, it only works against hydreigon spec if it's nasty plot neither the porygon nor the chansey can come, if it's hydreigon power it's the same

 

and yes hydreigon spec don't break stall but the hydreigon which is nasty plot has no problem destroying stall

 

I agree that we can benefit from a -2 att spe hydreigon to set up a pokemon and return a game

 

but I wasn't clear or you didn't understand my point of view

 

when I say the player does not need to think to click draco meteor : example if you play Chandelure you have to think about doing the fire move or the ghost move because you know that the water pokemon resists the fire attack and that the dark pokemon resists shadow ball

 

but with hydreigon it doesn't work in the same way you click on draco meteor and the resistance to dragon moves cannot necessarily come

 

tyranitar assaut veste die on move fight (hydreigon possible clic fight move)

and mienshao (the classique mienshao =

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 100 HP / 156 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 130-154 (84.9 - 100.6%)  )

if you play carrefuel you need double switch because hydreigon outspeed you  

 

so I don't understand when you say "Pokemon with assault vest can come easily"

 

"I said it is strong against all"  this means that even if you play a hydreigon to beat stall it will be  good against offense too

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by MadaraSixSix

[kiwi]

imo hydre should keep draco as all dragons have it, instead i would remove nasty plot, this way there will be more diversity in viable hydre checks, test it w/o np and if its still too strong then get rid of dm for good

[Frag]

I just feel like draco on this mon kills diversity, i used to see alot mienshao teams, more rain, and some interesting builds, but right now is hydre spam, the mon is too good to not use it, one click and something dies, and you dont have to worry about resists or AV because are useless against that dmg, so there's no check in h.o for this.

 

Hydre was already a good poke before draco, nasty and taunt versions have always been good against stall, so draco is more like a brainless adition for h.o matchups.

 

So in my humble opinion, the move is just unhealty.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Frag
format

[Godhelll]

17 hours ago, bobliu said:

I think we can keep the draco meteor of Hydre.

Hydreigon with draco meteor make the meta have much of fun. We can see some mons with assualt vest to check the choice specs hydreigon, such as Mienshao and Tytar, and opponent can use the turn of -2 sp.attack to win the attack opportunity.  But not only use the stall like Chansey or Tentacruel to check the sp.attacker, which we usually see in past days. Also, the plenty of mons which can counter Hydre keep the Hydre not to strong in the meta. Btw, the draco meter haven't destroy the meta this time, compare to two years ago. The meta can accept this change totally.

In addition, the draco meteor of Hydre helps HO team have more chance to break the stall. I am happy to see there is more HO team in the OU meta, since I love HO team.

It's the opposite, I don't see how Draco Meteor Hydreigon makes the meta more "fun" since it makes it more unhealthy and reduces the diversity of things that can be played. What you say is not true, Tyranitar Assault Vest or Mienshao doesn't really work against Hydreigon, since Draco Meteor does too much damage to Mienshao, and Tyranitar can enter on a U-turn or on a fighting type attack.

 

You say this: "Also, the plenty of mons which can counter Hydra keep the Hydra not to strong in the meta."

 

This is wrong once again, what are the "so many counters" to Hydreigon in the tier? Could you name them for us? What are the safe switch-ins in Hydreigon? There isn't any because the pokemon can pass everything and that's the problem.

 

Furthermore, it's not the meta that can accept this change, as you say, but the team/playstyle you run, which makes a big difference.

 

There were already many pokemon that are strong against stall before DM Hydreigon arrived. The problem is that the pokemon has become much stronger than it should be.

 

Also, we already know that most of the game players prefer to play HO, because most people don't have patience. This does not mean that we should deprive community players of being able to play stall if they wish, without them having to automatically lose in a metagame where Hydreigon is everywhere.

 

The pokemon was good enough before it got DM, there was never any need to make it broken like that. And, from my point of view, it is obvious that DM should be removed from Hydreigon in the current configuration of the game.

 

Here people spend their time complaining about stall, but it's their fault, they just need to be better prepared to beat this gaming style, they can only complain about themselves, quite simply. It is not up to the balance of the game to pay the price of the lack of efforts of certain players.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Godhelll

[bobliu]

mixed the concept, sry

Edited December 15, 2023 by bobliu

[Guest Lmao]

43 minutes ago, bobliu said:

About your question, in my mind, for most situation mineshao, garchomp, monkey, breloom, weavile can surely counter the Hydre. And there are also some mons can give hydre big threat, like many fight type mons with mach punch, Genger with focus blast, choice scarf Tyran or even Salamence.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 354-416 (108.9 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 368-434 (113.2 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mienshao Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 416-492 (128 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 288-338 (88.6 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 288-342 (88.6 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tyranitar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 294-346 (90.4 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 252-296 (77.5 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Also thanks for your opinion. I do agree that question is there are not many mons can switch in facing hyrdre, especially the choice specs type hydre. But I still remain the idea that we can keep the Hydre with DM.

You should first learn what a counter is 

[caioxlive13]

16 minutes ago, Guest Lmao said:

You should first learn what a counter is 

All of them abuses from the Hydrei's biggest weakness: Hydrei nuke one of your mons, but became a setup fooder after. Simmliar interaction that Scizor and Zone has, Zone kills Scizor and let Volca/Nite setup for free.

[razimove]

9 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

All of them abuses from the Hydrei's biggest weakness: Hydrei nuke one of your mons, but became a setup fooder after. Simmliar interaction that Scizor and Zone has, Zone kills Scizor and let Volca/Nite setup for free.

irrelevant to what was said previously, pls caio try for once.

None of those are counters, and do you really think a +2 hydra going into neutral becomes useless? 

Edited December 15, 2023 by razimove
judging the quoted above

[caioxlive13]

13 minutes ago, razimove said:

irrelevant to what was said previously, pls caio try for once.

None of those are counters, and do you really think a +2 hydra going into neutral becomes useless? 

not +2 to neutral, but from Neutral to -2 yes. 

Also, in the past they removed draco because NP + Draco was too strong, and now we can actually try to resist somehow if the set is not a Nasty Plot, or sack smth and setup right after. so why not remove NP and let draco? Sure, it still nuke some mons, but after you can punish by setup with something threatning. Like you would if you try to kill a scizor with zone: Volca and Nite would be a hard thing to deal.
Also, Hydrei's sets(No NP) falls on same gallade problem the users had pre-nerf: Scarf locks you and allows free setup after you attack, non-scarf is too slow and can be killed with right switches.

Edit: There is one more benefit from taking away Nasty Plot: This force Hydrei out after an attack and this allows to stack dmg with hazards. Rocks is 12%, but is still some progress, and if you have an weezing and make a good switch-in you can force some dmg from Spikes for instance.

Edited December 15, 2023 by caioxlive13

[ArtOfKilling]

After numerous thoughts and considerations I believe Draco Meteor has no place in MMO especially Choice Specs damages. It's just absurd and insane hitting everything on big damages if it's not named Chansey/Blissey/Empoleon. A scarf/life orb Draco Meteor can be somewhat handled with AV Mienshao/Tyranitar or "Steel Resistances", but the specs is just huge damages that you can't recover from. Most players prefer immediate damage with Specs rather than setting up and going for 50/50's.

 

Also something that some people might not be keeping an eye on is the slight increase in usage of Empoleon in OU it's currently sits at 3.09%. Give it another month, and more players would recognize Empoleon as a huge answer to Hydreigon and it will rise up to OU.

Empoleon is a core mon in UU and it going back to OU will cause to UU.

If y'all want to savour some headache from the future with UU Shifting and mons dropping to NU due to team changes and usages I think handling the core problem "Draco Meteor" would be the best outcome. not nerfing not removing nasty plot or any of these ideas 

Edited December 17, 2023 by ArtOfKilling

[Ramallero]

The problem here is that in the original games when Hydreigon was introduced (gen 5) he only has Draco Meteor (not nasty plot), so he can not set up. The counters were the same you alrdy mentioned (Chansey-Bliss-Tyranitar-Empoleon).

Later when he gain NP (gen 8 ) was not an issue cause Fairy type.

In the current meta we haven't the tools to deal with both sets (choice item+DracoM or Nasty Plot), yeah Assault Vest is nice, but not enough..

Is similar to the Garchomp case were let him have Sword Dance AND 120 Outrage is just too much (cause again lack of tools to handle it).

[VadimEmpoleon]

Additionally, to all the arguments on why Draco Meteor Hydreigon is too much for the tier I want to add that removing Nasty Plot wouldn't fix anything, mixed Hydreigon is as good as the Nasty Plot one, it doesn't risk missing Focus Blast and it doesn't lose damage after using Draco Meteor or Superpower, it can defeat Chansey, Blissey, Empoleon or AV Tyranitar easily.

 

It doesn't even need Nasty Plot or Focus Energy to deal with Chansey or Blissey, Taunt is enough.

[AwaXGoku]

21 hours ago, ArtOfKilling said:

After numerous thoughts and considerations I believe Draco Meteor has no place in MMO especially Choice Specs damages. It's just absurd and insane hitting everything on big damages if it's not named Chansey/Blissey/Empoleon. A scarf/life orb Draco Meteor can be somewhat handled with AV Mienshao/Tyranitar or "Steel Resistances", but the specs is just huge damages that you can't recover from. Most players prefer immediate damage with Specs rather than setting up and going for 50/50's.

 

Also something that some people might not be keeping an eye on is the slight increase in usage of Empoleon in OU it's currently sits at 3.09%. Give it another month, and more players would recognize Empoleon as a huge answer to Hydreigon and it will rise up to OU.

Empoleon is a core mon in UU and it going back to OU will cause to UU.

If y'all want to savour some headache from the future with UU Shifting and mons dropping to NU due to team changes and usages I think handling the core problem "Draco Meteor" would be the best outcome. not nerfing not removing nasty plot or any of these ideas 

While im agreeing with the first part of your message, the second part of your post has nothing to do with Draco Meteor Hydreigon in OU. UU shift will always be related to what happen in OU and it shouldnt be an argument at all when we need to discuss about something in OU. Keeping draco meteor on hydreigon will put Empoleon in OU? Probably yes, but it's how tier works and it wont influence our opinion about keeping DM hydrei or not in OU. 

[caioxlive13]

6 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:

While im agreeing with the first part of your message, the second part of your post has nothing to do with Draco Meteor Hydreigon in OU. UU shift will always be related to what happen in OU and it shouldnt be an argument at all when we need to discuss about something in OU. Keeping draco meteor on hydreigon will put Empoleon in OU? Probably yes, but it's how tier works and it wont influence our opinion about keeping DM hydrei or not in OU. 

When one mon is too good to force an lower tier mon to rise just to check it because the mons in the tier can't, it are 100% a threat. Please don't do the same mistake with Hydreigon you guys did allowing Crawdaunt in UU. 

[DoubleJ]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

When one mon is too good to force an lower tier mon to rise just to check it because the mons in the tier can't, it are 100% a threat. Please don't do the same mistake with Hydreigon you guys did allowing Crawdaunt in UU. 

When a mon moves up from underused, it become overused. C'mon chow, do better.

Edited December 19, 2023 by DoubleJ

[caioxlive13]

39 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

When a mon moves up from underused, it become overused. C'mon chow, do better.

If a mon rise due to it's own merits, it's fine. The problem is when a mon is raising to answer X/Y mon because no one in the tier can do it well. This only proves that the tier is unable to deal with such threats, at point that mons otherwise useless/niche options, has to be used to not take 6-0 from a specific pokemon, and givng up of using something better or that will not weaken your team. UU is like that, you has to weaken your team to psychic just to have an answer to Crawdaunt and restrict your teambuild to compensate that weakness.

Edited December 19, 2023 by caioxlive13

[PrinBruce]

Agreed with Caio on this one. When u Have to use an inferior mon simply cause the tier doesnt have safe ways to counter it, then there seems to be a problem. Since Empoleon is there to check Hydreigon and isn`t nearly as useful - or good - as the current OU mons on other functions, ur mostly playing a 5 versus 6 many times simply to check 1 mon

[ArtOfKilling]

19 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:

While im agreeing with the first part of your message, the second part of your post has nothing to do with Draco Meteor Hydreigon in OU. UU shift will always be related to what happen in OU and it shouldnt be an argument at all when we need to discuss about something in OU. Keeping draco meteor on hydreigon will put Empoleon in OU? Probably yes, but it's how tier works and it wont influence our opinion about keeping DM hydrei or not in OU. 

No it definitely has nothing to do with deciding to keep it in Draco or not, but for it's the longest time UU seem to have stabilized and to shape up. The butterfly effect of Draco Meteor is just a beginning of making things to shift and change again. If Hydreigon didn't get Draco I doubt Empo would be even mentioned beneath this topic, and trust me I couldn't care less about what happens in UU

[kiwi]

14 hours ago, PrinBruce said:

Agreed with Caio on this one. When u Have to use an inferior mon simply cause the tier doesnt have safe ways to counter it, then there seems to be a problem. Since Empoleon is there to check Hydreigon and isn`t nearly as useful - or good - as the current OU mons on other functions, ur mostly playing a 5 versus 6 many times simply to check 1 mon

thing is empoleon is good on its own regardless if hydre has draco or not, dont act like the mon is bad and its only used because hydreigon because it does much more 

[caioxlive13]

3 hours ago, kiwi said:

thing is empoleon is good on its own regardless if hydre has draco or not, dont act like the mon is bad and its only used because hydreigon because it does much more 

If that was the case, Empoleon would be OU. There is a reason to it stay UU since we had the Recovery PP nerf. Empoleon is not bad, but is simply outclassed and inferior to other mons in OU, and when you're forced onto using mons outclassed by others, because that mon has the ONLY advantage of beating X/Y mon that are threatning, it is a problem