January 2024 Movement Discussion

[caioxlive13]

Haxorus remaining banned, what a suprise. This mon will remain forever doomed to be completely useless everywhere.

[DoubleJ]

23 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Haxorus remaining banned, what a suprise. This mon will remain forever doomed to be completely useless everywhere.

You just don't know how to use it bro. Secretly so good bro. Could break all the walls bro. 

[caioxlive13]

17 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

You just don't know how to use it bro. Secretly so good bro. Could break all the walls bro. 

Yea, but how you want to use it over any other OU dragon? Even Mold Breaker doesn't justify using it anymore because Excadrill is a better abuser.

[RysPicz]

At this point I'm not even sure if JJ's sarcastic post was better or Caio's honest answer

[DoubleJ]

19 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Yea, but how you want to use it over any other OU dragon? Even Mold Breaker doesn't justify using it anymore because Excadrill is a better abuser.

Only 2x Weakness to Ice and resists Electric, Grass, Water, and Fire. Mold Breaker means EQ can hit Rotom and Hydreigon, and can break Sturdy. Access to Taunt, Swords Dance, and Dragon Dance. Close Combat to slay. 

 

It's a beast and the meta isn't built to handle it. Other Dragons are good, but so is Haxorus. Can handle Zapdos and Suicune. Go try it out. 

[RysPicz]

Jesus JJ stop baiting him

 

[Munya]

Lucario remains banned, Kingdra discussion has begun.  3 more after this one and we will be done reviewing the UU bans.

[epicdavenport]

50 minutes ago, Munya said:

Lucario remains banned, Kingdra discussion has begun.  3 more after this one and we will be done reviewing the UU bans.

NU discussions after that?

[Munya]

yes

[caioxlive13]

19 hours ago, Munya said:

Lucario remains banned, Kingdra discussion has begun.  3 more after this one and we will be done reviewing the UU bans.

Kingdra is banned from UU? I didn't know that. Whatever, the TC can freely unban this thing, it will remain OU by usage and very, VERY far from UU.

[TohnR]

I also never knew that Kingdra was banned from UU, has it ever fallen by lack of usage ?

[Munya]

Not anytime recently at least.  Its a very old ban, like, back when coolio was still TC  I think, unless I'm mixing up discord names.

 

EDIT: Can't find any of the topics regarding it, the discussion is in the discord is there and the mention of a post was definitely there, and I was involved in that discussion in some form, just can't find the posts related to it, happened in August 2018.

 

EDIT2: Found the post:

 

[Munya]

Kingdra remains banned, Porygon2 UU ban next.

[RysPicz]

When I'm looking at the BL/BL2 list:

 

 

I really dunno if there's anything that deserves a drop. How about you guys just discuss multiple things at the same time to save you and us some time?

[pachima]

2 hours ago, RysPicz said:

When I'm looking at the BL/BL2 list:

 

 

I really dunno if there's anything that deserves a drop. How about you guys just discuss multiple things at the same time to save you and us some time?

Discussing potential threats individually, ignoring the outcome of subsequent decisions is wrong either way. This was something I used to pinpoint and they very readily dismissed it, without providing any viable argument whatsoever. They treat this competitive game as something much more linear than what it really is. 

 

Sometimes it is not possible to accurately check every ramification. Sometimes the affected Pokemon do not interact with each other in a significant degree. But it is very common for a few variables to be immediately taken out of the equation, allowing them to freely discuss what is left in tandem.

 

Either way, can't wait for the NU discussion to begin. The issue I said above is much much more glaringly obvious in that tier, since everything listed is able to counter or enable each other in a very significant way. If they keep the individual discussions from 1574 with those given names, we are set to a complete set of disasters that will turn the medicham incident into an irrelevant meme. 

 

Edited January 22 by pachima

[caioxlive13]

I also think there is no need for a BL mon being listed as BL if gets like, 6 months in a row at least, with 10% or more usage. This clearly indicates that the mon even if TC unban, won't drop anytime soon unless something happens that really nerf it a lot.

[DoubleJ]

Nobody even knows who Coolio is. Down with 1574 tiering.

[Munya]

10 hours ago, pachima said:

Discussing potential threats individually, ignoring the outcome of subsequent decisions is wrong either way. This was something I used to pinpoint and they very readily dismissed it, without providing any viable argument whatsoever. They treat this competitive game as something much more linear than what it really is. 

 

Sometimes it is not possible to accurately check every ramification. Sometimes the affected Pokemon do not interact with each other in a significant degree. But it is very common for a few variables to be immediately taken out of the equation, allowing them to freely discuss what is left in tandem.

 

Either way, can't wait for the NU discussion to begin. The issue I said above is much much more glaringly obvious in that tier, since everything listed is able to counter or enable each other in a very significant way. If they keep the individual discussions from 1574 with those given names, we are set to a complete set of disasters that will turn the medicham incident into an irrelevant meme. 

 

Except they are free to say in these discussions that this would be okay if that happened or if that was unbanned, and has come up in discussion a few times, so seems like a moot point

The only instruction that has been given of what not to do was to have a discussion about an arena trap ban from OU elsewhere if it was needed as this is a review of current bans not implementing a new ban which would need to follow normal procedures.

 

12 hours ago, RysPicz said:

When I'm looking at the BL/BL2 list:

 

 

I really dunno if there's anything that deserves a drop. How about you guys just discuss multiple things at the same time to save you and us some time?

.

All of the topics we are going through had some level of support even if minimal, and during this review we wish to give everyone their chance to voice there thoughts on a subject.  When we move on to NU bans though we will be going in order of most support/thoughts had on a bad to least instead of just vote order.  So more likely unbans will happen first in discussion when we get there.  It seems kind of important when we have 5 year old bans that people forgot were even a thing.

[RysPicz]

2 hours ago, Munya said:

All of the topics we are going through had some level of support even if minimal, and during this review we wish to give everyone their chance to voice there thoughts on a subject.  When we move on to NU bans though we will be going in order of most support/thoughts had on a bad to least instead of just vote order.  So more likely unbans will happen first in discussion when we get there.  It seems kind of important when we have 5 year old bans that people forgot were even a thing.

Okay, fair enough, this makes sense. Thanks Munyu.

[Ziiiiio]

I think Shadow tag Wobbuffet could start to discuss, if nerfing Sharpness has been turned back, which means Shadow Tag should get a same chance. Additionally after Shadow tag nerfed, we expand movepoul these years, Many mons got Teleport UT and Baton pass. Which gives some way to escape from Shadow Tag. 

 

It will be a other option to check Gallade speticaly now Sharpness back to 50%, Wobbuffet checks it and with Colbur Berry it stops Gallade easier.

 

We can reverse the nerfing, or increase it to 5 turns. Also we could try reverse the nerf and BAN Tickle.

[gbwead]

Wobbuffet without tickle would be healthy for our meta. It would also be very annoying for somme regen mons like Amoongus being forced to run Gastro Acid. 

[SuperBXdanielo]

5 hours ago, gbwead said:

Wobbuffet without tickle would be healthy for our meta. It would also be very annoying for somme regen mons like Amoongus being forced to run Gastro Acid. 

Don't think wobbuffet would be healthy for the meta, it's a stronger dugtrio who can trap and kill nearly any wallbreaker with ease. The only one to win from this addition would be Hydreigon, due to it's immunity to mirror coat, making the game shift towards him as the only viable wallbreaker.

[YourAngst]

I do not agree super ,wobba would be a good addition to our metagame , ''why?'' you may ask unlike the traping dug provides , wobba by its nature its more passive and limited by its move pool a lot in fact.All you need to deal with wobba is one move , Taun and thats it compared to dug wich not only requers more prep comeing from you both in teambuilding and during the match alike but also for a certain sequence of plays to go as you planed

 

not to metion that hydra being able to click dark pulse and not fear anything is not the only mon that can attack wabbo without fearing anything for exp: scizor can easly press u-turn and go into a ghost type and wobbo can t do anything about that , same as rotom being able to just click volt switch and go into a dark type like wevile , wich can taunt or even hydra and u turn into a ghost type and you keep doing this preatty much indefinitely untill wobba would either be force to switch out and odds are its goona switch out on a move like u turn or volt in wiche case you still get momentum or find its self in range for a KO ,

 

another thing you can run are phazeing moves like roar/whirlwind /dragon tail (idk how the counter /dragon tail interaction works so fell free to correct me ) , i don t think having something like this in ur team is a huge commitment when it comes to play in the current meta + wobba in it again you don t need all of this at oance , just taunt or just u turn +ghost type or even something like skarmory/empoleon/hippo/garchomp/hydra all of wich get acces to hazards+roar(chomp and hydra also get roar) wobba would not in any shape or form be stronger or more ''toxic'' then dug is only way that wobba migth be broken would only  when used in conjunction with other trappers but not sure about that depends on a lot of circumstances

either way I for one would much rrather choose to play in a meta with the sort of traping wobba provides any day of the week when compared to the likes of  traping dug and his best buddies espeon and shedninja provide on that note if dug is allowed in OU then so should wobba be , no tickle and normal shadow tag just like it has been sugested above

[gbwead]

Wobbuffet went from OU to Untiered when it didn't have Tickle. It would not be a big deal imo.

 

[SuperBXdanielo]

21 minutes ago, YourAngst said:

I do not agree super ,wobba would be a good addition to our metagame , ''why?'' you may ask unlike the traping dug provides , wobba by its nature its more passive and limited by its move pool a lot in fact.All you need to deal with wobba is one move , Taun and thats it compared to dug wich not only requers more prep comeing from you both in teambuilding and during the match alike but also for a certain sequence of plays to go as you planed

 

not to metion that hydra being able to click dark pulse and not fear anything is not the only mon that can attack wabbo without fearing anything for exp: scizor can easly press u-turn and go into a ghost type and wobbo can t do anything about that , same as rotom being able to just click volt switch and go into a dark type like wevile , wich can taunt or even hydra and u turn into a ghost type and you keep doing this preatty much indefinitely untill wobba would either be force to switch out and odds are its goona switch out on a move like u turn or volt in wiche case you still get momentum or find its self in range for a KO ,

 

another thing you can run are phazeing moves like roar/whirlwind /dragon tail (idk how the counter /dragon tail interaction works so fell free to correct me ) , i don t think having something like this in ur team is a huge commitment when it comes to play in the current meta + wobba in it again you don t need all of this at oance , just taunt or just u turn +ghost type or even something like skarmory/empoleon/hippo/garchomp/hydra all of wich get acces to hazards+roar(chomp and hydra also get roar) wobba would not in any shape or form be stronger or more ''toxic'' then dug is only way that wobba migth be broken would only  when used in conjunction with other trappers but not sure about that depends on a lot of circumstances

either way I for one would much rrather choose to play in a meta with the sort of traping wobba provides any day of the week when compared to the likes of  traping dug and his best buddies espeon and shedninja provide on that note if dug is allowed in OU then so should wobba be , no tickle and normal shadow tag just like it has been sugested above

Saying that roar or taunt are counters to Wobbuffet is the same as saying breloom is a counter to dugtrio, despite it being, breloom would never be in a position to act as such.

 

People will use wobba to revenge kill wallbreakers, such as conkeldor, Mamoswine, darmanitan, gallade, Band Dragonite, Band Garchomp, Band Infernape, band breloom if he locks into close combate...

 

As well to take down some sweepers, like Dragonite, Gyarados, Lucario and everything that don't hit Wobbuffet super effective.

 

This will buff stall teams (probably the only ones that will use this mon)in a way that make wallbreaking them way harder, unless you use Hydreigon, Weaville, bug bite Scizor, volcarona or something else that doesn't come to mind now, just to give you a chance to win. This will hurt balanced teams, as they depends way more on the only wallbreaker or sweeper they have than a H.O or B.O, which usually has more than one. 

 

But maybe wobbuffet will become just a new Dugtrio, that despite being very op has a very low usage, making people think that it's not a big deal until someone create a team like the Shedinja Dugtrio Espeon stall. I don't think that will happen because of his position as a hard gallade counter, so every stall will use it, but still a possibility.