April 2024 Movement Discussion Thread

[IanP]

Blaziken NU = 🤤🤩😎😈

[Munya]

The tier council position has been filled, sorry for the somewhat late reply, @FlacuSkye has joined the team.

[Luke]

Gallade is such a joke. It should supersede the devs "no ban" clause and be banned because it's so broken lol, I don't understand? TC agreed to nerf it, nothing changed relevant to counter it now the nerf is undone for no reason.. Sableye is used in OU purely for it..

 

Dugtrio is also uncompetitive nonsense. I'll keep saying both of these things until I'm blue in the face; the lack of action is astonishing.. These god awful uncompetitive Dugtrio teams are a joke. At the very least remove endeavour and sd, it is so easy to remove chansey with dugtrio with these moves (especially endeavour) and just spam a ton of special attackers.. I was very against giving both of these moves to dug and surprise surprise, they are a huge problem.

Edited April 19 by Luke

[Zokuru]

11 hours ago, Luke said:

Dugtrio is also uncompetitive nonsense. I'll keep saying both of these things until I'm blue in the face; the lack of action is astonishing.. These god awful uncompetitive Dugtrio teams are a joke. At the very least remove endeavour and sd, it is so easy to remove chansey with dugtrio with these moves (especially endeavour) and just spam a ton of special attackers.. I was very against giving both of these moves to dug and surprise surprise, they are a huge problem

Go abuse it and prove your point. I faced 2 dugs in PSL, one was played by ZioMoji, I easily won both games. Dugtrio is really not a big deal, just play smart.

[Luke]

7 hours ago, Zokuru said:

Go abuse it and prove your point. I faced 2 dugs in PSL, one was played by ZioMoji, I easily won both games. Dugtrio is really not a big deal, just play smart.

 

"3 Support Uber

A Pokémon that in common battle conditions can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep or stall.

 

3. Uncompetitive

Moves or abilities may be banned if they are deemed uncompetitive, based on one of the following aspects.

 

Invalidation based 

Uncompetitive Invalidation based Aspects are those that take away autonomy from players by invalidating, to an unacceptable degree, key elements of gameplay. What may be considered an unacceptable degree is rather subjective, so it’s important to keep in mind that all moves and abilities can be restrictive to a certain extent. "

 

Anyone being honest will concede that Dugtrio fits all 3 descriptions I posted above. It was always kind of like this but never really could trap enough to invalidate certain playstyles, then endeavor dropped and now it can remove pretty much every grounded wall, a few on it's own including Chansey but the issues start when it's used in conjunction with a momentum gaining move like teleport or U-Turn. "Play smart" never use Chansey? Never send Chansey on the field? Never heal Chansey up? Even when Dug "isn't a big deal" it still has an affect by what it makes you not do or not run. 

 

I'd be willing to make a dug team and abuse it + send the replays here if I thought it would do anything, but I don't believe this TC will do literally anything lol so what I'll remain doing is explaining how stupid the decisions are.

Edited April 20 by Luke

[caioxlive13]

18 hours ago, Luke said:

Gallade is such a joke. It should supersede the devs "no ban" clause and be banned because it's so broken lol, I don't understand? TC agreed to nerf it, nothing changed relevant to counter it now the nerf is undone for no reason.. Sableye is used in OU purely for it..

 

Dugtrio is also uncompetitive nonsense. I'll keep saying both of these things until I'm blue in the face; the lack of action is astonishing.. These god awful uncompetitive Dugtrio teams are a joke. At the very least remove endeavour and sd, it is so easy to remove chansey with dugtrio with these moves (especially endeavour) and just spam a ton of special attackers.. I was very against giving both of these moves to dug and surprise surprise, they are a huge problem.

Gallade people don't know how to counter it, serp was same on 2021. Isn't a mon that you should throw a wall to stop him since their role is purely break walls. Is a mon you should outoffense it to win. And considering how mediocre their physical bulk is, it's not a hard job. Gallade isn't like Hydrei Draco which could break easily 90% of the walls and couldn't be outoffensed so easily.

Dugtrio honestly should be banned, i had to agree. Like i said, idk if was on this thread or in others, "If community-votes existed there instead of TC votes, Dug would be banned long ago, no one likes it and most unofficial tours bans AT anyway."

Edited April 20 by caioxlive13

[Luke]

8 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Gallade people don't know how to counter it, serp was same on 2021. Isn't a mon that you should throw a wall to stop him since their role is purely break walls. Is a mon you should outoffense it to win. And considering how mediocre their physical bulk is, it's not a hard job. Gallade isn't like Hydrei Draco which could break easily 90% of the walls and couldn't be outoffensed so easily.

Dugtrio honestly should be banned, i had to agree. Like i said, idk if was on this post or in others, "If community-votes existed there instead of TC votes, Dug would be banned long ago, no one likes it and most unofficial tours bans AT anyway."

Ok I have a rule in my head to never reply to you but this is just such a misrepresentation of history I have to.

 

People did not randomly hate serp because they were clueless fools way behind your genius caiox. Amoonguss got added, and as did AV and it remedied the problem significantly. We also have Zapdos now too. Answers got added for it, there wasn't some random 'adaptation' gradually over the years... Hard answers were dropped in an update.

 

Not even mentioning an unwallable Pokemon (which serp was pre Amoong outside of garbage like Golbat) which requires you to run an offensive team is quite literally offensive uber lol

 

Please just stop spamming threads with garbage. I won't engage further with you as my braincells don't need any more damage than the damage I've suffered facing these trash matchup fishing dug teams on ladder in this last week...

Edited April 20 by Luke

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, Luke said:

"3 Support Uber

A Pokémon that in common battle conditions can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep or stall.

Consistently, no. There are many viable teams against which Dugtrio can't consistently set up a winning situation.

1 hour ago, Luke said:

3. Uncompetitive

Moves or abilities may be banned if they are deemed uncompetitive, based on one of the following aspects.

 

Invalidation based 

Uncompetitive Invalidation based Aspects are those that take away autonomy from players by invalidating, to an unacceptable degree, key elements of gameplay. What may be considered an unacceptable degree is rather subjective, so it’s important to keep in mind that all moves and abilities can be restrictive to a certain extent. "

Uncompetitive applies to moves and abilities. Arena Trap by nature is not necessarily uncompetitive, espcially on mons like Trapinch and Diglett that suck so bad that even AT is not enough to make them viable or interresting. Arena Trap on Dugtrio is another story tho, but does it take autonomy from players to an unacceptable degree, that's arguable.

 

Most OU mons that seem weak to Dugtrio can usually manage just fine: Infernape can u-turn, Metagross/Empoleon have enough bulk, Lucario has priority and Excadrill has Rapid Spin. The mons that can't do anything vs Dugtrio are Magnezone and Ttar. They are doomed if they stay in front of a Dugtrio switching in. Ironanically, Magnezone and Ttar fall pretty much in the same category of uncompetitiveness as Dugtrio. Magnezone Trapping Skarm, Scizor, Empoleon, Ferrothorhn, etc. Ttar having the potential to trap everything with Pursuit, but mainly Chandelure that becomes useless. The difference is that unlike Dugtrio, Magnezone and Ttar have high stats so even when they don't have a specific target to trap, they are rarely dead weight. Dugtrio can totally be dead weight if it doesn't have a target to trap. 

With that being said, Arena Trap may affect more mons than Magnezone and Ttar, but Dugtrio itself doesn't accomplish as much with Arena Trap than Magnezone and Ttar in general. Using Dugtrio to trap Ttar or Magnezone is pretty much fighting fire with fire imo.

Edit: Forgot to mention Volcarona that also gets trapped by Dugtrio and I'll concede that u-turn Volcarona is not super common.

Edited April 20 by gbwead

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, Luke said:

 

 

Not even mentioning an unwallable Pokemon (which serp was pre Amoong outside of garbage like Golbat) which requires you to run an offensive team is quite literally offensive uber lol

There i would have to correct you. Right after Crobat infiltrator entered the meta, DoubleJ declared that with HA serp was more manageable. Part of the reason that the discussion thread about serperior stopped receiving posts after the HAs was introduced. Also, besides Amoongus and Chandelure, all possible and relevant answers we had back then we still had today. Things like Volca(Nowadays best thing vs Serperior, people forgot at the release lol, no one mentioned it as a possible answer back then(just weezing, which still are +- good on OU today, not that relevant as before but can do the job pretty well still)) and Weavile as good checks. Zapdos i won't even put on the list because we had him for 4 months, and a full year without him.

Edited April 20 by caioxlive13

[LeJovi]

Weavile is a good check for serp? Never heard that one before, would love to see the calcs for that one

[caioxlive13]

4 hours ago, LeJovi said:

Weavile is a good check for serp? Never heard that one before, would love to see the calcs for that one

Come from a TP and scare Serperior away. Just 2 hits iirc had a chance not to KO.

[SweeTforU]

13 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Come from a TP and scare Serperior away. Just 2 hits iirc had a chance not to KO.

Which means that chansey is a good check. not weavile

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, SweeTforU said:

Which means that chansey is a good check. not weavile

Weavile has to support. Chansey alone can't do ***. Serperior wins just spamming Leaf Storm.

[SweeTforU]

50 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Weavile has to support. Chansey alone can't do ***. Serperior wins just spamming Leaf Storm.

Listen, a check means a safe switch in. Weavile doesnt safely switches in vs serp but chansey does. It doesnt matter whether chansey can beat it in return or not.

[VadimEmpoleon]

From Forums Tiering Definitions:

 

What is a Check?

A pokemon that under normal conditions can beat the opposing pokemon before it is itself beaten. Switching into the opposing pokemon should usually be costly, risky or impossible depending on the situation.

 

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 88-105 (60.6 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 88-108 (58.6 - 72%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 132-162 (88 - 108%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 176-216 (117.3 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 132-156 (88 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 198-234 (132 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Edit 1: Weavile is a Serperior check by definition, at least in most situations, but this still has nothing to do with Gallade.

Edit 2: Added CB Weavile calcs too.

Edited April 21 by VadimEmpoleon

[caioxlive13]

26 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Edit: Weavile is a Serperior check by definition, at least in most situations, but this still has nothing to do with Gallade.

Ask for them that started discussion about serp, i mentioned that people didn't know how to check serp back then because apart from one reliable check, aka chandelure, everything that checked serp back when people complained and when the discussion calmed down and ended, was the same.(Putting into Context, the discussion was hot in August to Early October, and calmed on Late october) Same right now with Gallade, people don't know how to check him and think that it would be the same as 90% of offense that is just throw some sturdy wall and everything is fine. You has to outoffense a gallade to win against it, not throw a tank on it. And i mentioned repeatedly that outoffensing gallade it's not a hard job, at least not when compared to other things banned like Hydreigon. 80 speed is mid on OU, not bad but not top speed either, so if he doesn't run scarf then it will be outspeed by a lot of common threats, and if it does use Scarf then with the Choice-lock the opponent gets the chance to setup. Also very low physical def make him susceptible to a lot of common prioritys like Bullet Punch, Fake Out at low health, extreme speed, I'm even on doubt that he can tank a mach punch despite the resist in some scenarios, forcing Gallade away if he predicts wrong the attack he is using.

Edited April 21 by caioxlive13

[pachima]

We have finally reached a point when, in the very rare situation where Caio is right and Sweet is wrong, some hiveminded people brainlessly side with Sweet, dismissing Caio, not because it is the logical thing to do, not because the argument tells them to do so, but simply because in their minds the argument is less important than whoever claims it. (Tip: It isn't)

 

Weavile IS a Serperior check. I don't care what gimmicks you want to extrapolate, or whatever you want to say or imply or claim. There is proper terminology in the Pokemon world and instead of actually fighting for or against the actual arguments, we loop between semantics where some have no idea what they are talking about. 

 

Thank you VadimEmpoleon for going through it properly. 

 

Regarding Dugtrio, and, most specifically, Gb's post on it. It is true some of Dugtrio's targets can dodge. Some can pivot, others have enough bulk. Yada yada. But you missed the fundamental point. Dugtrio is not supposed to hard switch against them. It is supposed to gain free momenum beforehand so it can then trap its target. There is only one way (Barring the very irrelevant Shed shell), to prevent this, which is to never play the Pokemon before Dugtrio is taken down. Congratulations! Dugtrio has successfully pressured their threats without even being on the field. This is unhealthy. 

 

Or, is it? Magnezone and Tyranitar can, in a way, accomplish the same. So what is the difference between these two and Dugtrio? The amount of targets they possess. The first two have very limited choices, while Dugtrio is able to delete a very significant part of the format. This is the main reason why the Pokemon was chronically banned in most formats. It is very easy and worthy trading a death so Dugtrio can then safely delete the threat you want to get rid of.

 

But what is the unhealthy part? Is it Dugtrio? Is it Arena Trap? The issue with this question is you cannot completely separate the Pokemon from their ability (Or whatever else they possess). Afterall, Diglett and Trapinch are not an issue. Does this mean Arena Trap is inherently unhealthy? Both yes and no. 

 

Since this is probably hard to grasp at first glance, let me find something else: Wonder Guard. Is it broken, or unhealthy? Not necessarily. Afterall, Shedinja is harmless with it. Let's see another harmless Pokemon in OU: Jolteon (Yes, irrelevant enough so it is not even OU). Jolteon with Wonder Guard would be both broken and unhealthy. This is interesting because Jolteon by itself isn't an issue, and neither is Shedinja with the ability. It is the combination of the two that would make it a problem. 

 

Maybe you can argue Arena Trap isn't unhealthy. You can definitely argue Dugtio isn't broken. But you can't simply state that because A and B are not an issue and share an ability with C, then C isn't an issue either.

 

To answer the question. What is the unhealthy part? Not one or the other separately, but simply the combination of the two. 

 

(Yes, I understand Wonder Guard Jolteon doesn't exist. The argument is still the same)

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25 by pachima

[gbwead]

I rarely agree with Pachima, but I do this time.
 

9 hours ago, pachima said:

Dugtrio is able to delete a very significant part of the format

This is the only part I believe to be misrepresented because I don't think Dugtrio deletes a significant portion of the format when you look at the most common OU mons 1 by 1.

I want to stress out something important; if there is a problem, it's not AT or Dugtrio, but indeed the combination of both. AT by itself is not banworthy, just like Wonder Guard on Shedinja specifially is not banworthy. Since bans are never permanent on PokeMMO, I think if something gets done about AT+Dugtrio, we need to consider the potential nerfs. I think banning AT or nerfing it does not make sense since the ability is completly fine on Trapinch and Diglett. Reducing back Dugtrio's base attack to 80 like it was in the past would be imo completly cannon and authentic to the original games. 

I'm personally fine if TC determines Dugtrio+AT as banworthy. I think there are good reasons to vote for or against that ban. However, I truly fear the nerf that will come afterwards and I really hope people will push for the attack stat reduction and not something else. Every single pokemon in OU that Dugtrio traps will be affected positively by an attack stat reduction except for Magnezone and Ttar that I mentionned earlier and that's a good thing.

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

I rarely agree with Pachima, but I do this time.
 

This is the only part I believe to be misrepresented because I don't think Dugtrio deletes a significant portion of the format when you look at the most common OU mons 1 by 1.

I want to stress out something important; if there is a problem, it's not AT or Dugtrio, but indeed the combination of both. AT by itself is not banworthy, just like Wonder Guard on Shedinja specifially is not banworthy. Since bans are never permanent on PokeMMO, I think if something gets done about AT+Dugtrio, we need to consider the potential nerfs. I think banning AT or nerfing it does not make sense since the ability is completly fine on Trapinch and Diglett. Reducing back Dugtrio's base attack to 80 like it was in the past would be imo completly cannon and authentic to the original games. 

I'm personally fine if TC determines Dugtrio+AT as banworthy. I think there are good reasons to vote for or against that ban. However, I truly fear the nerf that will come afterwards and I really hope people will push for the attack stat reduction and not something else. Every single pokemon in OU that Dugtrio traps will be affected positively by an attack stat reduction except for Magnezone and Ttar that I mentionned earlier and that's a good thing.

The policy about bans changed. Now the likely scenario is an AT + Dug Complex Ban on all tiers except dubs(Yes, all tiers. It will sit at 0% usage even on Untiered non-official meta without AT.)