NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[RysPicz]

2 minutes ago, Munya said:

And I'm telling you I don't care what it was in the past, what it is now is what it is and how it is.

ever how is...

[Frag]

Tier changes in the middle of the month are way better, quite anoying always asking before team tourn if pending changes are gonna be applied

[gbwead]

11 minutes ago, Munya said:

And I'm telling you I don't care what it was in the past, what it is now is what it is and how it has been for some time now.

That's fine, we don't have to argue about the timing of these changes if you don't want to. However, for the sake of clarity, it would go a long way if you could actually say the words for the record that "Standard Bans can happen mid month".

 

Edit: "what it is now is what it is and how it has been for some time now"

These kind of statements are overly cryptic and create more confusion than anything else. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by gbwead

[pachima]

7 minutes ago, Munya said:

And I'm telling you I don't care what it was in the past, what it is now is what it is and how it is.

And all that it is and how it whatever ever how is is not what gb meant at all. Gb tried to explain that if you are to change policies out of nowhere, you should announce what the changes are so we know how and when to discuss things in the appropriate thread in these forums. 

[Munya]

It hasn't changed its been that way for a long time, it has always been the stance we prefer not to change in the middle of a month, especially in the seasonal month as we can't take that usage back, but its never been off the table, at the very least not for years.

[DoubleJ]

I did give a pretty good heads up a couple weeks ago... but anyhow. Viva la BYE MEDICHAM

[gbwead]

9 minutes ago, Munya said:

It hasn't changed its been that way for a long time, it has always been the stance we prefer not to change in the middle of a month, especially in the seasonal month as we can't take that usage back, but its never been off the table, at the very least not for years.

I know I'm annoying and I apologize for that, but could you clarify who is "WE" when you say "We prefer". Are you refering to Developpers, yourself or are you speaking on the behalf of the Azphiel, Huargensy, DoubleJ, iRusher, Axellgor and Awaxgoku?

It's important for the community to know who you are refering to because in the future when players make a case for a middle of the month standard ban, they need to know who they need to convince exactly.

Edited October 14, 2023 by gbwead

[Munya]

As with any ban you need to convince the TC, I will just advise against doing it in the middle of a month due to the aforementioned usage.  They are free to do whatever they want though as long as the timeframe and or requirements mentioned in the policy for bans are met.

 

I can only speak for myself so in this case lets just call the we, I.

[gbwead]

10 minutes ago, Munya said:

As with any ban you need to convince the TC, I will just advise against doing it in the middle of a month due to the aforementioned usage.  They are free to do whatever they want though as long as the timeframe and or requirements mentioned in the policy for bans are met

Thank you. Very interesting.

[caioxlive13]

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

I have a copy of the previous Tiering Policy and I can compare it to the new one that was updated on April 18th, 2023. The only change that was made for Quick Bans that now have to be unanimous.

 

Your personal preferences regarding the timings of potential bans is of no importance. For the past several years, bans have always occured at the end of each month unless it was a quick ban. You can ask @suigin, @pachima, @PoseidonWrath or any previous TC member of the past 5 years, there will all confirm that you never allowed us to vote for standard bans unless it was the end of the month.
 

I am personally fine with the Medicham decision, but your application of the policy changed and therefore you should make an announcement to explain what these changes are. The least you can do is confirm officially that from now on Standard Bans can occur in the middle of the month because that was absolutely not the case before.

Policy didn't changed from previous to new according to yourself, and according to policy: 
 

Quote

Standard Process

 

Standard bans will be made through the following process:

 

1. A community member or tier council member recommends further discussion on a Pokemon or an aspect of the competitive metagame (i.e. move, ability, etc.).
2. If deemed appropriate, a tier council member then opens a discussion thread in the public forum.
3. The community and tier council discuss the aspects of the aforementioned Pokemon, move, ability, etc for a period of at least one week (will likely take longer).
4. After a period of at least one week of discussion, the tier council will vote whether to ban or keep the nominated Pokemon, move, ability, etc.
5. A vote requires a 2/3 majority by the tier council to pass
6. When the decision is made, the council will post in the thread and notify the community of the decision. This post will provide the reasons behind the decision.
7. No subsequent bans will be made for a period of at least two weeks after the ban was announced in order for the tier to stabilize after the change; changes may still occur by usage as dictated above. This applies to all bans.

4. After a period of at least one week of discussion, the tier council will vote whether to ban or keep the nominated Pokemon, move, ability, etc.

So the voting starts after a week.

Also @Munya, the policy changed recently? Because i remember the period for tier stabilize, wasn't two weeks but instead one month.
Also noticed a new special consideration and rules, that basically force TC to review bans every end of year in december(For people curious, see: PokéMMO Tier Council and Official Tier Policies, topic Special Considerations and Rules, 2nd rule.)

Edited October 14, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Munya]

It was a month yes, but its not now. And no, you are ignoring the fact no subsequent bans will occur for a specified period of time after another ban has occured(now 2 weeks) outside of quick bans which this one already had and failed vote on.

 

The special considerations is new and is an internal discussion unless something is deemed needed to be brought up to the community, it is indeed new and does not mean things will be unbanned and retested at the end of every year.

[DarylDixon]

8 hours ago, Munya said:

It was a month yes, but its not now. And no, you are ignoring the fact no subsequent bans will occur for a specified period of time after another ban has occured(now 2 weeks) outside of quick bans which this one already had and failed vote on.

 

The special considerations is new and is an internal discussion unless something is deemed needed to be brought up to the community, it is indeed new and does not mean things will be unbanned and retested at the end of every year.

does we have a chance to get a new tier (RU) in the further future? because there are many and many mon in untiered that have chance to join the fraid in nu? i mean there are some nu mons that are broken and dumb for the tier, uu has so many unused mon and making them nu would be kinda dumb, so the new tier wouldnt be a good thing?

[Munya]

We have no plans at this time to add any more tiers.

[caioxlive13]

11 hours ago, Munya said:

It was a month yes, but its not now. And no, you are ignoring the fact no subsequent bans will occur for a specified period of time after another ban has occured(now 2 weeks) outside of quick bans which this one already had and failed vote on.

And thank god we had this rule. Because if TC failed to vote Venomoth as well, only one of two(between Venomoth and Medicham) could be suspected and banned, while the other we would have to wait until next month to see an action.


 

 

3 hours ago, DarylDixon said:

does we have a chance to get a new tier (RU) in the further future? because there are many and many mon in untiered that have chance to join the fraid in nu? i mean there are some nu mons that are broken and dumb for the tier, uu has so many unused mon and making them nu would be kinda dumb, so the new tier wouldnt be a good thing?

You're missing a important part: to those unused mons fall off a change on cutoffs would have to happen. Otherwise, the new RU = current NU.
However the idea of a new tier isn't bad at all and like Untiered and LC, it can be done in a Unofficial way.

[gbwead]

15 hours ago, Munya said:

And no, you are ignoring the fact no subsequent bans will occur for a specified period of time after another ban has occured(now 2 weeks) outside of quick bans which this one already had and failed vote on.

This is not clear:

Special Considerations

Quote

No subsequent bans or unbans will be made for a period of at least two weeks after a ban, unban, or suspect test is announced in order for the tier to stabilize after a change; changes may still occur by usage as dictated above. This applies to all bans & tests.  A Quickban can bypass this time requirement but if it fails, must wait the 2 week minimum that normal bans require.

Quick Bans

Quote

Quick bans will be made when a certain aspect (be it a Pokémon, an ability, a move, an item or a combination of the aforementioned) of the metagame becomes so blatantly broken that passing it through a formal discussion or testing period would be a waste of time and effort for everyone. They can circumvent all other normal process and as such are used sparingly. Quick bans will be made according to the following circumstances:

 

The tiering policy is contradicting itself, so I think you should edit it to make it more clear. "This applies to all bans & tests, but not quickbans" or "They can circumvent almost all other normal process..." 


Nidoqueen was quick banned and then we had to wait one and a half month because there could not be any subsequent ban.
Venomoth was quick banned, but Medicham got banned 2 weeks later as standard process.

Please clarify why the Tiering Policy applied differently in these two situations. 

[Munya]

Its actively being worked on/rearranged so yes it might not make much sense right now, thank you for your feedback. 

Specifically I was asked to clarify when bans will be handed out after a vote. 

But quickbans are also being reworked a bit to be an ongoing vote during a normal ban process so they don't necessarily "end" in the normal sense, if votes ever meet the criteria of a quickban(unanimous voting) then they can happen at any time without constantly needing to re-open a quick ban vote.  Once a Normal ban process vote happens both voting polls and the thread will be closed. 

 

As for past bans and ban processes they are irrelevant under current policy, we are not held to previous policy.

[caioxlive13]

Any thougs on torterra, now with Shell Smash avaliable? 

 

Just to remind for people: If tier council doesn't give a unanimous vote on a quick ban we will have torterra on the tier for a month(2-week wait due to medicham's ban, and there is not enough matches on UU and NU during halloween to conduct a properly suspect. The suspect to be effective would have to wait until halloween ends.)

Edited October 19, 2023 by caioxlive13

[razimove]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

Any thougs on torterra, now with Shell Smash avaliable? 

 

Just to remind for people: If tier council doesn't give a unanimous vote on a quick ban we will have torterra on the tier for a month(2-week wait due to medicham's ban, and there is not enough matches on UU and NU during halloween to conduct a properly suspect. The suspect to be effective would have to wait until halloween ends.)

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, razimove said:

Torterra can learn Smack Down, which can effectively fuck up Bronzor.

 

Still, I don't see it being any good with it's atrocious speed, which leaves it outsped by several scarf users, suspectibility to status and all entry hazards (although it does resist rocks), x4 ice weakness causing it to take around 80% from Piloswine's Ice Shard and it's forced to pick coverage for Bronzor or Golbat (Stone edge vs Smack Down). It also absolutely has to run Jolly, or scarf Rotom will outspeed it, limiting it's damage potential.

I would still say it's shit and it will probably end up being untiered anyway xD I hope I'm wrong, it'd be cool to have another viable mon coming out of untiered, but historically as you can probably see, almost all mons (exceptions being Blastoise and Cloyster) that got shell smash are shit.

 

Again, I hope I'm wrong and I'm just theorymoning here

[razimove]

9 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Torterra can learn Smack Down

smack down already makes his coverage a lot worst on turn 1/after SS vs stone edge, but yes I guess with the objective of dealing with bronzor, this is nice, but like you said it either packs coverage for bronzor or bat. I can honestly see him picking up usage since it becomes a fun set to run, but I don't see him going anywhere.
 

[caioxlive13]

21 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Torterra can learn Smack Down, which can effectively fuck up Bronzor.

 

Still, I don't see it being any good with it's atrocious speed, which leaves it outsped by several scarf users, suspectibility to status and all entry hazards (although it does resist rocks), x4 ice weakness causing it to take around 80% from Piloswine's Ice Shard and it's forced to pick coverage for Bronzor or Golbat (Stone edge vs Smack Down). It also absolutely has to run Jolly, or scarf Rotom will outspeed it, limiting it's damage potential.

I would still say it's shit and it will probably end up being untiered anyway xD I hope I'm wrong, it'd be cool to have another viable mon coming out of untiered, but historically as you can probably see, almost all mons (exceptions being Blastoise and Cloyster) that got shell smash are shit.

 

Again, I hope I'm wrong and I'm just theorymoning here

a simple question, which tier Magneton are currently in? If NU or below, then there is no need for people run smack down on Torterra when you had a mon that can trap bronzor. I can see some crazy people attempting Magnemite just for trapping bronzor. Before someone says Magnemite is sh**, and no one would use it, on Gen 9 ribombee is s***, and yup, it still are OU due to their legit niche of sticky web setter. If the mon found a legit niche it can be used.

Edited October 19, 2023 by caioxlive13

[TohnR]

Asking for a ban on Torterra is ridiculous when mons like Tangrowth, Golbat, Leafeon and Exeggutor exist.
When it is weak to a commonly used priority and neutral to most others.
When it is weak to U-Turn and outsped by a variety of choice scarf users. 

 

That means both defensive and offensive teams got multiple means to handle it, that's what I call a perfectly balanced setup sweeper

Edited October 19, 2023 by TohnR

[DarylDixon]

imagine talking about torterra and not shit free to ban like

 

bronzor, eelektross,gigalith and sharpedo lel

[Shadow]

I honestly don't see how Torterra would be ultra-broken in the tier, not even enough to put it in test in my opinion. Torterra keeps having value as a simple attacker or as a rocks setter, but now it has another setup over SD and Rock Polish

[RysPicz]

43 minutes ago, DarylDixon said:

imagine talking about torterra and not shit free to ban like

 

bronzor, eelektross,gigalith and sharpedo lel

ever broken uber direct tc noobs lo. .-.

E:

NU looks fine, I'd rather start thinking about Empoleon's viability in UU with all the boosts it's getting but that's a discussion for a different thread

Edited October 19, 2023 by RysPicz