[OU Discussion] Gallade

[Merckis]

1 hour ago, Ziiiiio said:

You have billion of hard counter vs Rotom: Black sludge guss/roserade, AV mienshao, mail blissey.....  Covers either def/spd/np/trick. (Trick sludge nerf rotom's hp, and AV will let rotom can not use trick anymore).  And by predicting 1 time of trick, will let trick rotom becomes 0 threaten to stall, VS gallade you need keep predicting correct, one time in game is far not enough.

 

Not better than Rotom≠ No discustion about nerf/ban Gallade. It depends on the effect it brings, it can be many different way to show.

 

There 0 hard conter to Gallade, makes defensive playstyle hard vs him. then HO team find no pressure facing it. So it is a work about Gallade→Stall. We can not create a new pokemon to counter Gallade, what I think is buff walls to change the situation better. We get few options but is seem to be low usage, because nerfed PP make many walls not good to stay in OU, bring low usage wall might can solve Gallade in ur team, but at same time easier lose to the others.

 

Ban is not a good solution, it's a wall breaker UB only, nerf wall breaking ability or buff walls should be a good way to start. Ban it cause guss+mienshao VS guss+mienshao again and 60 mins match back to OU.

 

Finally, sorry for my expression of repetition

 

 

That's a great answer, totally respect your arguments there.

 

Air Mail Blissey kinda shows to what extent players will go to counter Rotom, giving up an item slot to counter a single move, I think it's a symptom of a problem.

 

In my opinion Rotom forces you to build your team to counter it, it shapes the metagame & teambuilding.

But Gallade will be chipped by Stealth Rock & Weather, it will take significant damage from priority moves. It will die even to untiered threats, any mon which outspeeds Gallade can kill it.

It's vulnerable to status, etc. etc. It requires a more pro active gameplay, but any team can kill a Gallade. It can never switch in for free. However some team can simply not deal with Gliscor at all, same for cores like Rotom/Mienshao/Amoonguss/Chansey/Blissey.

No "hard counter" isn't totally wrong in current metagame, but there are definitely checks & you can always predict & punish. Gallade always needs to guess correctly on the psycho cut, sacred sword, ice punch, etc.

I feel the problem is more that stall team are so strong that they can even incorporate Gallade to beat other stall teams

 

Like in no other metagame (smogon etc.) has Gallade been banned out of OU. Gallade will come & go, Rotom Wash & Gliscor etc. will stay.

 

Better to keep bringing new stuff to the metagame, way more fun as well.

 

Also it's not really true regarding the hard counters because of the 4 moves syndrome.

Without Leaf Blade, Slowbro & Sableye can counter
Without Ice Punch, Defensive Salamence, Gliscor can counter

And if you don't run Scarf you'll get outsped, if you run Scarf then you can counter by definition, of course you need to scout the scarf first, not saying that's easy, but there is something you can do.
Also, again, it needs to get in in the first place, avoid a status, avoid a teleport, etc. etc. You cannot get in for free & swing your sacred sword like a maniac

Also Weavile will trap it & kill it with Pursuit, Metagross can easily fight with him, there are things to do.

 

Gliscor isn't vulnerable to status at all, it can taunt & break any wall, it can make a mistake & recover with protect or Roost. It can run max sp def & tank ice beam. It can even stall Hydro Pump Rotom Wash & win with toxic & roost.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Merckis

[caioxlive13]

Asking for help on doing a better argument, something was pointed on Gallade by some friends:

• Is previsible, easier to scout set with one factor.
• Using Scarf, he has lower bulk. Using anything else, Lack speed.
• He has to guess the predict , or he needs to do a forced switch out at best, or faint on worst case.
• No team gets full invalidated with presence of a Gallade. It was proven that absolutely no mon can invalidate a entire team.

Also, @Merckis pointed other important thing. 4-Moveslot Syndrome. It has to Run Sacred Sword/Psycho Cut. So he has 2 moves left.

Without Night Slash, Reuniclus and Cofagrigus can now enter.
Without Leaf Blade, Slowbro & Sableye can counter.
Without Ice Punch, Defensive Salamence, Gliscor can counter.

 

He cannot freely click anything. Unless he are coming from a Teleport or a slower U-turn, he has Teleport/Status/U-turn/Volt Switch/etc... to worry about. 

Pursuit trappers are a thing. Weavile for example, if manages to enter is GG, and for the factors mentioned above it can. Dugtrio can be a thing, you quake and then Sucker Punch a trapped gallade, he are dead. He escapes only if you use SD dugtrio and this is not a good set for dugtrio either, or dugtrio gets chipped by hazards.

[EleBuzz]

Hey,  I'm a mid Tier pvp player and have been playing for 2 years now, so take it easy on me if I say something crazy.  I made this account today just so I could share my POV on this topic. 

 

I usually play Balanced or hyper offense with mon that just happen to be strong against Gallade and so with those play styles I dont have a hard time beating gallade AND winning the game.  Now I can definitely see how someone who plays stall MOST of the time is having a terrible time against it. I don't think sharpness is broken but the power it has in combination with the variety of sets, I think can be. I do not think sharpness should be banned or nerfed. I think if anything the move set should be nerfed.  From my experience its just stall teams that lose Because of gallade every other play style may take a loss from gallade but  that's not the reason they lost if they lost. 

 

This is might be a crazy take but I look at gallade in a similar way that I look at togekiss. Scarf kiss is great against hyper offense and you hardly need skill to use it. Gallade is great against stall teams and you hardly need skill to use it against stall unless its scarfed and you need to predict correctly. Making it MORE predictable than it already is by nerfing move set would help the stall players play stall and I think that's the right way to go about it.

 

I also want to say that if we have some new HA for WALLS that can handle gallade that would be  better than banning or nerfing. 

 

The current meta may have caused volatility in win rates for the high ranking players but from a new player/casual standpoint It makes it a lot of fun. 

 

 

[Quinn010]

@Munyacan we have slowbro or tangrowth to finally get a check for gallade 

[BaliAds]

17 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

@Munyacan we have slowbro or tangrowth to finally get a check for gallade 

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-172 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 99-118 (47.8 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 199-234 (96.1 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
 

Yes regen will stop gallade 🙏

 

Only way to really stop it is nerf sharpness make it 20% boost instead 

[Quinn010]

6 minutes ago, BaliAds said:

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-172 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 99-118 (47.8 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 199-234 (96.1 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
 

Yes regen will stop gallade 🙏

 

Only way to really stop it is nerf sharpness make it 20% boost instead 

Just use leftovers

[Ziiiiio]

Rengen mons dont stop SD gallade at all.

[Huargensy]

It's funny that most opinions against Gallade are "Completely nullifies stall" or "Makes stall unfeasible", then we have the latest shiny tournaments lasting up to 5+ hours due to stall vs stall games.

 

[Godhelll]

6 hours ago, Huargensy said:

It's funny that most opinions against Gallade are "Completely nullifies stall" or "Makes stall unfeasible", then we have the latest shiny tournaments lasting up to 5+ hours due to stall vs stall games.

 

It's absolutely not an argument, and it's a logic that has nothing to do with Gallade's problematic in the tier.

 

Stall vs stall often generates very long matches. It is highly likely that stall players would have been swept away by a Gallade SD if they encountered one.

 

It's still obvious that Gallade SD destroys stall, the problem hasn't changed

 

it is not because some matches last a long time, that the problem does not exist anymore, it is a totally faulty reasoning

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Godhelll

[Huargensy]

1 hour ago, Godhelll said:

It's absolutely not an argument, and it's a logic that has nothing to do with Gallade's problematic in the tier.

 

Stall vs stall often generates very long matches. It is highly likely that stall players would have been swept away by a Gallade SD if they encountered one.

 

It's still obvious that Gallade SD destroys stall, the problem hasn't changed

 

it is not because some matches last a long time, that the problem does not exist anymore, it is a totally faulty reasoning

 

The biggest argument is: "Gallade makes stalemate unfeasible", well unfeasible means people just can't play it cool, watching stalemate vs stalemate games in multiple early or late rounds just shows that stalemate still has viability , gallade complicated the stalemate, just like crawdaunt did, but the stalls were still played with poliwrath, don't confuse a "Defeat stall" with a "Makes the stall unfeasible ", I see that the stall can be played even with gallade Being one of the most used currently, where is the unfeasible stall teams?

[Godhelll]

21 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

The biggest argument is: "Gallade makes stalemate unfeasible", well unfeasible means people just can't play it cool, watching stalemate vs stalemate games in multiple early or late rounds just shows that stalemate still has viability , gallade complicated the stalemate, just like crawdaunt did, but the stalls were still played with poliwrath, don't confuse a "Defeat stall" with a "Makes the stall unfeasible ", I see that the stall can be played even with gallade Being one of the most used currently, where is the unfeasible stall teams?

I don't know who said that Gallade made it impossible to play stall, since for that it would be necessary for Gallade to have 100% uses, which is obviously not the case.

 

The conclusion is rather to say that Gallade is a problem insofar as, currently, in the game, there is no defensive pokemon in the game that can be a solid answer. So, in fact, taking a team stall and finding yourself against a Gallade SD almost means taking an automatic defeat, which is anti-competitive

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Godhelll

[Frag]

1 hour ago, Huargensy said:

The biggest argument is: "Gallade makes stalemate unfeasible", well unfeasible means people just can't play it cool, watching stalemate vs stalemate games in multiple early or late rounds just shows that stalemate still has viability , gallade complicated the stalemate, just like crawdaunt did, but the stalls were still played with poliwrath, don't confuse a "Defeat stall" with a "Makes the stall unfeasible ", I see that the stall can be played even with gallade Being one of the most used currently, where is the unfeasible stall teams?

Unfeasible doesn't mean you are forbidden to play with wathever you want.

People play the way they like, even with Gallade in the tier they can still choose to play stall or with a Pikachu if they want.

Your argument has no logic.

[Huargensy]

2 hours ago, Godhelll said:

I don't know who said that Gallade made it impossible to play stall, since for that it would be necessary for Gallade to have 100% uses, which is obviously not the case.

 

The conclusion is rather to say that Gallade is a problem insofar as, currently, in the game, there is no defensive pokemon in the game that can be a solid answer. So, in fact, taking a team stall and finding yourself against a Gallade SD almost means taking an automatic defeat, which is anti-competitive

 

Not really, sd gallade only has 3 slots, of which 2 depend on the stab, if you don't execute ice punch gliscor with the spread it can enter and eliminate you from acrobatics, in any case running it sableye leaves you with nothing to , you are playing stall so you should even have these 2, even without these, if you have covered the types you should force gallade to predict or run away, I could give an example from my experience or someone else's to see what to throw psychocut on an amoongus to a skarmory makes gallade run, and choosing sacred sword predicting skarmory can make it eat spore, if you use sd it can enter saber to throw you encore or wow

 

Even teams without sableye can play around it, it's not like "Let's see, a gallade, let's take it away, the sableye is an ornament in this stall", in all the time I've been playing I haven't seen as many stall teams in tournaments as now , which is just when it is supposed to be infeasible

 

1 hour ago, Frag said:

Unfeasible doesn't mean you are forbidden to play with wathever you want.

People play the way they like, even with Gallade in the tier they can still choose to play stall or with a Pikachu if they want.

Your argument has no logic.

if it has to do with tournaments because the best you have is used there, you don't use a pikachu in a tournament and you reach high rounds like finals or even round 5, why? Simple, because it is not viable, if you play something that is not viable, you resign yourself to falling in the initial rounds, you are not playing ladder, many rounds from initial to high are played stall, I include myself, I play stall, not because I like it, because I think it's the best in a metagame like this

 

 

 

If the biggest argument against gallade is "It's a wallbreaker, let's remove it because it has no answer" , it's a wallbreaker, if it didn't break these it wouldn't be, you still have sableye to combine it into your stalls and stop it.   Hoopa-U or M-Mawile were not banned in SM for not having safe counters. The problem with a Wallbreak does not lie in not having accounts, it lies in how difficult it is also to be eliminated by revenge, I find it funny that the biggest problem that gallade has is that it is even difficult to revenge on the special side and therefore also it complicates balanceds and some offense by sustaining and weakening things like volcarona, hydre, serperior without any problem, this is why I even lean towards the ban side, because unlike normal wallbreaks, it also complicates offense with items like AV , when a wallbreak is difficult to revenge is when it really breaks

[Godhelll]

52 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

Not really, sd gallade only has 3 slots, of which 2 depend on the stab, if you don't execute ice punch gliscor with the spread it can enter and eliminate you from acrobatics, in any case running it sableye leaves you with nothing to , you are playing stall so you should even have these 2, even without these, if you have covered the types you should force gallade to predict or run away, I could give an example from my experience or someone else's to see what to throw psychocut on an amoongus to a skarmory makes gallade run, and choosing sacred sword predicting skarmory can make it eat spore, if you use sd it can enter saber to throw you encore or wow

 

Even teams without sableye can play around it, it's not like "Let's see, a gallade, let's take it away, the sableye is an ornament in this stall", in all the time I've been playing I haven't seen as many stall teams in tournaments as now , which is just when it is supposed to be infeasible

 

if it has to do with tournaments because the best you have is used there, you don't use a pikachu in a tournament and you reach high rounds like finals or even round 5, why? Simple, because it is not viable, if you play something that is not viable, you resign yourself to falling in the initial rounds, you are not playing ladder, many rounds from initial to high are played stall, I include myself, I play stall, not because I like it, because I think it's the best in a metagame like this

 

 

 

If the biggest argument against gallade is "It's a wallbreaker, let's remove it because it has no answer" , it's a wallbreaker, if it didn't break these it wouldn't be, you still have sableye to combine it into your stalls and stop it.   Hoopa-U or M-Mawile were not banned in SM for not having safe counters. The problem with a Wallbreak does not lie in not having accounts, it lies in how difficult it is also to be eliminated by revenge, I find it funny that the biggest problem that gallade has is that it is even difficult to revenge on the special side and therefore also it complicates balanceds and some offense by sustaining and weakening things like volcarona, hydre, serperior without any problem, this is why I even lean towards the ban side, because unlike normal wallbreaks, it also complicates offense with items like AV , when a wallbreak is difficult to revenge is when it really breaks

 

SD+3 moves on Gallade is more than enough to single-handedly beat entire defensive teams. And also, even Gallade with 4 attacks is a problem for defensive teams. Even more if the opponent chooses to play wish to support Gallade.

 

Regarding Gliscor, a good player has no reason to not play Ice Punch on Gallade.

 

And when you consider playing stall, including an bad pokemon like Sableye just to have a better chance of handling a single pokemon better is ridiculous. Besides, Sableye is not magic against a very angry Gallade and the PPs of Sableye's recover disappear very quickly.

 

It's all very well, this story of predicting, but the goal of the game is for it to be as strategic as possible, not for it to be even more around luck. And then, even if you manage to put Gallade to sleep on a risky predict with Amoonguss, as you say, what are you going to do then with a stall? He'll wake up fast enough to come back knocking.

 

And then in any case, it would take too many resources to try to do something against Gallade. Sableye is a bad poke in the tier, doesn't work so much, and WoW can even miss.

 

I've seen a few stall teams in tournaments, but let's not exaggerate, there aren't that many either. And many are punished precisely when they fall against certain offensive teams or precisely Gallade.

 

A wallbreaker is made to break walls, but not to break all the walls, that's the nuance that is important in this case. The fact that there isn't a solid answer to Gallade isn't a normal problem, and that's why the Pokemon would logically need to be nerfed, even though Munya said that he wouldn't do a nerf. 

 

I know most people don't like to play against stall, but as Frags just mentioned, I obviously think all playstiyles should be able to be played properly.

 

Losing with a particular playstyle on a single pokemon just because we refuse to update it, I find it ridiculous, but that's just my humble opinion, of course

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Godhelll

[drewq]

2 hours ago, Frag said:

People play the way they like, even with Gallade in the tier they can still choose to play stall or with a Pikachu if they want.

Your argument has no logic.

Does one play stall because they like it or does one play stall because they like winning? 

 

I think we should get another month of statistics in all honesty. 

[caioxlive13]

8 hours ago, Huargensy said:

The biggest argument is: "Gallade makes stalemate unfeasible", well unfeasible means people just can't play it cool, watching stalemate vs stalemate games in multiple early or late rounds just shows that stalemate still has viability , gallade complicated the stalemate, just like crawdaunt did, but the stalls were still played with poliwrath, don't confuse a "Defeat stall" with a "Makes the stall unfeasible ", I see that the stall can be played even with gallade Being one of the most used currently, where is the unfeasible stall teams?

Exactly the argument i tried to do before(I also explained that part of stall viability doesn't get cut off by gallade, but yes because of changes like pp nerf). You people hear, I not.

[pachima]

Whoever implies regen Poke like slowbro aren't enough to contain Gallade need to re-evaluate all their competitive knowledge. 

 

Slowbro would not only absolutely destroy Gallade but also the whole tier we currently have. 

[Zokuru]

28 minutes ago, pachima said:

Whoever implies regen Poke like slowbro aren't enough to contain Gallade need to re-evaluate all their competitive knowledge. 

 

Slowbro would not only absolutely destroy Gallade but also the whole tier we currently have. 

Slowbro would indeed be extremely toxic to the tier, but it isnt nearly enough to stop Gallade. I advise you re-evaluate your competitive pokemon understanding.

[RysPicz]

Adding JUST regenerators is not a solution. To comfortably fit Sharpness Gallade into our metagame, we need it to become complete, with all hidden abilities and viable legendaries. For now, without them, I cannot see Gallade in our OU.

[PoseidonWrath]

After a 3 month review, Gallade appears to not fit well within the current OU tier and the TC has voted. 

 

Gallade has been banned by a majority vote to Ubers. The Tier Council deems that Gallade fits Offensive Uber characteristics and will be removed immediately. We thank u all for discussing this important topic with us, we as TC appreciate every input.

 

The change will take place with the rest of the tiering changes at the end of the season.