[PvP Updates] Gen 9-2 DLC and Reverse Nerfs

[Draekyn]

@Kyu
It’s been 5 days, comp community is at a clear consensus to anyone with a pair of eyes and a functional brain.

A plethora of suggestions have been given. Some good, some bad, most if not all better than what was initially proposed.

Read Luke’s message and reply to it. He is right & speaks for all of us, even those who don’t know better.

 

I doubt you care much for competitive balance, I get that it’s mostly about being able to provide the shiny new gen toys. And that in a vacuum isn’t bad, the intent is commendable.
Sometimes the additions are going to work out and fit right into the frankenstein of a metagame we’re creating, sometimes they won’t. Massively different metagames, newer gens powercreeps, new gen gimmicks… I’m sure you’re aware.

 

It’s fine to have a vision for your game. It’s your game.
But you set the TC as your shield to comp players’ complaints, and for them to do their job properly - i.e. shielding you from complaints - they have to have the reins on these things.

Either let them do their job or remove them and own up to your vision. 
Natural progression if you go over their heads is that the competent ones will quit (as so many already have), and you’ll just be left with more complaints.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Draekyn

[razimove]

3 hours ago, OuplayerS said:

Of course It takes risks to switch a high speed attacker facing gallade. Simply like you want to enter a high speed attacker facing on Conkeldurr with Guts and flame orb.

Sorry but they arent even remotely similiar, I wont bother explaining to not derail the thread, but please provide some calcs to back up what you're saying, you must know something I dont, while at it, check natures and item usages for our gallade meta pre nerf.

[Lumiere]

On 10/8/2023 at 3:06 PM, Bertolfoso said:

Just wanted to note that zam is not in gen9 so it can't have movepool buffs, before it gets added by accident (zam fans seethe)

Yeah I just checked and ur right, idk why it was in the pre-list in the chat, maybe just a confusion.
Thank u sir, updated.

[LeJovi]

Y'all really tagging Kyu in here 😂

 

Revert gallade's nerf, draco on hydreigon, SD on chomp, let's have fun

[razimove]

Also, idk if off topic but, why do you guys review stuff like gallade nerf which is pretty recent, but never even test 120 bp outrage? yes yes its broken, but so is gallade and here it is, getting buffed again

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, razimove said:

Also, idk if off topic but, why do you guys review stuff like gallade nerf which is pretty recent, but never even test 120 bp outrage? yes yes its broken, but so is gallade and here it is, getting buffed again

They try to be loyal to the original games. However now with 1.4x boost, and even a possibility of 1,35x if gallade get deemed too broken, the policy about the nerfs maybe changed. 
Why not try to test outrage with 100 Base power, if 120 is too much? A garchomp with 100 BP Outrage would be equivalent to use Dragon Rush but no missing, obviously with the backfire of locking yourself for 2-3 turns onto the move, so people would be basically be choosing between the accuracy of Focus Miss, or 2 turn locked at minimum, +confusion.

Edited October 10, 2023 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

When you fuck up so bad that Caoix ideas become logical... 

[Ziiiiio]

The logic of buffing Gallade because it has been nerfed, so that is why sharpness can become 1.4 in this update , sheer force Nidoking not.

 

So how about pp nerf ? Mandibuzz, bold salamence, xato etc.. get the same(even worse) situation with Gallade now, how about change healing moves back to 16 pp specially DM hydregon is coming. 

 

[Munya]

10 hours ago, razimove said:

Also, idk if off topic but, why do you guys review stuff like gallade nerf which is pretty recent, but never even test 120 bp outrage? yes yes its broken, but so is gallade and here it is, getting buffed again

Probably a few things, first being scope. This is an ability that only a single mon has, its much easier to monitor and evaluate its change compared to outrage that has a much broader impact at least in where it can be used and by what.  That said theres also probably the timeframe in question, the Gallade nerf is very recent  and you could consider it still in the testing phase.  Outrage was left that way a long time ago in comparison.  Outrage is not off the table entirely though, it was very recently asked about so you may see it get tested sometime in the not so distant future after these changes are done and things settle with them.

[gbwead]

2 hours ago, Munya said:

Probably a few things, first being scope. This is an ability that only a single mon has, its much easier to monitor and evaluate its change compared to outrage that has a much broader impact at least in where it can be used and by what.  That said theres also probably the timeframe in question, the Gallade nerf is very recent  and you could consider it still in the testing phase.  Outrage was left that way a long time ago in comparison.  Outrage is not off the table entirely though, it was very recently asked about so you may see it get tested sometime in the not so distant future after these changes are done and things settle with them.

What about Wobbuffet going from Uber to Untiered? Why is this fine, but Gallade going from 20% usage in OU to 6% usage in OU is unacceptable?  

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

What about Wobbuffet going from Uber to Untiered? Why is this fine, but Gallade going from 20% usage in OU to 6% usage in OU is unacceptable?  

Wobbufet i think is because of the time, 1 turn more of trapping change the whole interaction. Wobbu enters against, let's say chansey(who used seismic on the turn he entered), and wobbu encore on the next move, if you predict that and use toxic, then the opponent has to use safeguard to not get statused with the sweeper, and after that the shadow tag's time expired. Add 1 more turn and this change, because you can switch, chansey is still trapped, safeguard is active so you basically get a whole free turn to setup.

Edited October 10, 2023 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

5 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Wobbufet i think is because of the time, 1 turn more of trapping change the whole interaction. Wobbu enters against, let's say chansey(who used seismic on the turn he entered), and wobbu encore on the next move, if you predict that and use toxic, then the opponent has to use safeguard to not get statused with the sweeper, and after that the shadow tag's time expired. Add 1 more turn and this change, because you can switch, chansey is still trapped, safeguard is active so you basically get a whole free turn to setup.

No.

[TohnR]

16 hours ago, razimove said:

Also, idk if off topic but, why do you guys review stuff like gallade nerf which is pretty recent, but never even test 120 bp outrage? yes yes its broken, but so is gallade and here it is, getting buffed again

To be fair, Outrage could be buffed to 100 BP and probably still would't be broken

[Sargeste]

7 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Wobbufet i think is because of the time, 1 turn more of trapping change the whole interaction. Wobbu enters against, let's say chansey(who used seismic on the turn he entered), and wobbu encore on the next move, if you predict that and use toxic, then the opponent has to use safeguard to not get statused with the sweeper, and after that the shadow tag's time expired. Add 1 more turn and this change, because you can switch, chansey is still trapped, safeguard is active so you basically get a whole free turn to setup.

So much for gbwead thinking there might be a brain somewhere in your head.

[caioxlive13]

18 minutes ago, Sargeste said:

So much for gbwead thinking there might be a brain somewhere in your head.

And for some outside players(smogon players) think there is some on yours.

 

6 hours ago, TohnR said:

To be fair, Outrage could be buffed to 100 BP and probably still would't be broken

Outrage's problem is some mons could be stupidly broken with it. But not every dragon would use it, so what munya said:
 

Quote

Probably a few things, first being scope. This is an ability that only a single mon has, its much easier to monitor and evaluate its change compared to outrage that has a much broader impact at least in where it can be used and by what.  That said theres also probably the timeframe in question, the Gallade nerf is very recent  and you could consider it still in the testing phase.  Outrage was left that way a long time ago in comparison.  Outrage is not off the table entirely though, it was very recently asked about so you may see it get tested sometime in the not so distant future after these changes are done and things settle with them.

isn't infact true. Out of the 4 dragons used on OU(Mence, Chomp, Nite and Hydreigon), only 2 would use, Chomp and Mence, because Hydreigon is mainly special and for nite is a bit more complex: Outrage doesn't synergize well with Multiscale, the idea of being trapped is very harmful for Nite as it needs to be healthy to be able to setup and win, also without the ability's dmg reducion(that would be the case after he takes any hit while locked) he is frail and a lot of things could OHKO it. On lower tiers, altaria's main role is defensive so it wouldn't use it. Haxorus is banned from lower tiers and wouldn't be boosted on OU due to the opportunity cost(you has other valuable dragons that you could use over Haxorus). Maybe Flygon uses it on UU, but he is only one using it.
also some calcs of 100 BP outrage on it:
252 Atk Life Orb Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 78-92 (23 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 117-138 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 56.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You get at best 3hko at the cost of a perma-toxic, and need to watch out for gyro ball. Also people could abuse from the lock(while on outrage, you can't switch until the attack ends) and use chip dmg in form of rocky helmet to slowly but surely weaken your flygon.

So, if boosted TC would have to closely look only 3 mons, isn't a big deal since they're monitoring a whole archetype on UU and 3 mons simultaneously on NU(Medicham suspecting, and a close look on Milotic and Blastoise.)

Edited October 10, 2023 by caioxlive13

[FlacuSkye]

4 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

 

Out of the 4 dragons used on OU(Mence, Chomp, Nite and Hydreigon), only 2 would use, Chomp and Mence, because Hydreigon is mainly special and for nite is a bit more complex: Outrage doesn't synergize well with Multiscale, the idea of being trapped is very harmful for Nite as it needs to be healthy to be able to setup and win, also without the ability's dmg reducion(that would be the case after he takes any hit while locked) he is frail and a lot of things could OHKO it.

wdym dnite wouldn't run outrage 
it fits perfectly on archetypes like dragmag since it can freely spam outrage making its partners  easily clean through weakened teams late-game

[caioxlive13]

41 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said:

wdym dnite wouldn't run outrage 
it fits perfectly on archetypes like dragmag since it can freely spam outrage making its partners  easily clean through weakened teams late-game

Problem is chip dmg, if your oponent has something that lives Outrage, you're f*** because your nite can't do anything to stop your opponent from doing with that mon what he wants(Maybe wow(if run cofa)/twave/leech seed(ferrothorn) and f*** your nite, maybe going for a kill straightforward.). And this mon is in more particular ferrothorn(+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 42-51 (23.2 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery - edited with 100 BP outrage), and maybe skarmory(+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 41-48 (23.8 - 27.9%) -- 90% chance to 4HKO - yes, it lives, i checked after the edit)? I'm not 100% sure. Ok, if you get rid of them is easy job to sweep, but clean them away is not that simple(Magnezone needs to enter on the right time and hope both doesn't switch out.), for Dragmag maybe found a place but outside of it i don't think so, also magnezone isn't good for trapping the mons mentioned because yes, you kill those mons but your magnezone will turn into a setup fooder for their own mons(aka volca and nite, if they have.)

Edited October 11, 2023 by caioxlive13

[LifeStyleNORE]

17 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Problem is chip dmg, if your oponent has something that lives Outrage, you're f*** because your nite can't do anything to stop your opponent from doing with that mon what he wants(Maybe wow(if run cofa)/twave/leech seed(ferrothorn) and f*** your nite, maybe going for a kill straightforward.). And this mon is in more particular ferrothorn(+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 42-51 (23.2 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery - edited with 100 BP outrage), and maybe skarmory(+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 41-48 (23.8 - 27.9%) -- 90% chance to 4HKO - yes, it lives, i checked after the edit)? I'm not 100% sure. Ok, if you get rid of them is easy job to sweep, but clean them away is not that simple(Magnezone needs to enter on the right time and hope both doesn't switch out.), for Dragmag maybe found a place but outside of it i don't think so, also magnezone isn't good for trapping the mons mentioned because yes, you kill those mons but your magnezone will turn into a setup fooder for their own mons(aka volca and nite, if they have.)

https://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/dragonite/

 

Literally 2 out of 3 recommended sets run Outrage

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

https://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/dragonite/

 

Literally 2 out of 3 recommended sets run Outrage

we're not playing Smogon's BW. Current Gen's sets of nite doesn't even use a single stab(Most common set on gen 8 is Quake/Fire Punch/E-Speed/DD), and on MMO isn't the better thing of the world DClaw, that has 2/3 of outrage's power.
Also, isn't like Dragmag, one thing that was alleged that nite is good, is viable on OU scenario, because using Magnezone benefits more the opponent than you. especially on Dragmags: You give a whole turn to opponent setup after you get the ko on their steel, once he goes nite and uses 2 DD, the game is over.
 

Edited October 11, 2023 by caioxlive13

[LifeStyleNORE]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

we're not playing Smogon's BW. Current Gen's sets of nite doesn't even use a single stab(Most common set on gen 8 is Quake/Fire Punch/E-Speed/DD), and on MMO isn't the better thing of the world DClaw, that has 2/3 of outrage's power.
Also, isn't like Dragmag, one thing that was alleged that nite is good, is viable on OU scenario, because using Magnezone benefits more the opponent than you. especially on Dragmags: You give a whole turn to opponent setup after you get the ko on their steel, once he goes nite and uses 2 DD, the game is over.
 

"we're not playing Smogon's BW"

> proceeds to talk about current gen that has fairies and Tera

 

The more you try to argue that Dragonite wouldn't use 120bp Outrage in our current meta, the dumber you look. ffs. 

 

But hey I get it. You'd probably click Outrage turn 1 after seeing a Ferrothorn on your opponent's team

[NiceRNGbro]

don't answer him. It's a problem.

[caioxlive13]

39 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

The more you try to argue that Dragonite wouldn't use 120bp Outrage in our current meta, the dumber you look. ffs. 

And when i argue that would use 120 BP outrage? All of the time i was talking on the 100 BP Outrage possibility. Even on the post you quoted first, i've using calcs with 100 BP outrage,

Edited October 12, 2023 by caioxlive13

[suigin]

On 10/9/2023 at 8:41 PM, razimove said:

Also, idk if off topic but, why do you guys review stuff like gallade nerf which is pretty recent, but never even test 120 bp outrage? yes yes its broken, but so is gallade and here it is, getting buffed again

In the current dev mandated competitive hellscape I'm surprised they haven't buffed it.

[DoubleJ]

I'd 💪 it

[Queza]

Can we get a bloody answer already so we don't have to keep cringing at particular posts made from people, it's actually frustrating to see new replies to only find its certified AI garbage thats been through google translator about 5 times. 

 

On the topic of outrage, i'm not against it either. This hopefully helps haxorus/flygon by a small margin, Banded/Dragon gem dragonite would also be really fun with that addition.