January 2024 Movement Discussion

[Ziiiiio]

ban the move, maybe. Qwil really do nothing in upper tier

[epicdavenport]

9 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

ban the move, maybe. Qwil really do nothing in upper tier

Why would you ban the move? It would just become NUBL. Otherwise we could have what ever pokemon we wanted in any tier if we banned enough moves.

 

There are options for switch ins against a +2 qwilfish with Quagsire, defensive Qwilfish, haze Golbat ( no rocks of course ). It's also easily revenge killed by a number of special attackers due to its poor special bulk.

 

Theres an off meta option with Eviolite Metang. 

 

Not justifying it just adding other possible options.

 

Edit: Also forgot about Ferroseed which would be able to take some pretty serious hits from Qwil and retaliate with a mix of leech seed, gyro ball, and iron barbs.

Edited January 9 by epicdavenport
forgot something

[Ziiiiio]

33分钟前，epicdavenport 说：

Why would you ban the move? It would just become NUBL. Otherwise we could have what ever pokemon we wanted in any tier if we banned enough moves.

 

I do not mean remove the move...just like ban Kindra+Swift Swim years ago if we have to. There is a option to ban the whole thing and I mean we might keep Qwil just what it was before gunk shot added.

[Munya]

Nothing changing with Darmanitan, moving on to Dugtrio. We are still discussing things just not in a rush.

[Bertolfoso]

On 1/5/2024 at 11:10 PM, ArtOfKilling said:

I'm not sure if im the crazy one here, but when are we going to start a Qwilfish NU discussion? 

Well the burden of proof is on you, so if you want a discussion about Qwilfish to be started, you should start it.

 

About Qwilfish, I really don't believe it to be too strong. There is plenty of offensive counterplay and, while there may not be many (in number) defensive counters, those that exist are quite solid and easily splashable. SD can't be set up freely, there are specific pokemon Qwil sets up on, which makes it easier to plan around.

 

This is not meant to be a personal attack at all, but you may have this opinion because the teams you use have a big Qwilfish weakness, more than it being overall too strong for the tier.

[Bertolfoso]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:12 PM, gbwead said:

P2 was already retested in UU following the pp nerf. As for weathers, P2 would imo be great at countering weathers since it is capable of tanking pretty much anything from weathers teams and hurts them back a lot in return. I think P2 would be a very annoying momentum killer for weathers teams. Physical Entei stands no chance vs P2. The only hope Entei and Raikou have is Sub+CM. I'm not sure that's enough to retest P2 but it's something. However, P2 would still have no offensive switch ins in the tier because I don't think sub+cm Raikou or Entei can afford switching into P2.

Sorry for double posting, but P2 barely stops Entei, especially in the sun. Also it would be forced to be defensive with trace, which makes Modest + Download less splashable if used as a check. Defensive is total setup for either cat if cm.

 

Weather imo is very brainless in UU and i have been wanting to see action on it for a good while. I also think Entei is potentially too much 

[Godhelll]

It would be nice to reduce the nerf on Shadow Tag so that Wobbuffet can become playable again.

 

 

It would also be nice too to remove the -2 SpeDef drop from Seed Flare on Shaymin so he can go back down to UU

[DoubleJ]

5 hours ago, Godhelll said:

It would be nice to reduce the nerf on Shadow Tag so that Wobbuffet can become playable again.

 

 

It would also be nice too to remove the -2 SpeDef drop from Seed Flare on Shaymin so he can go back down to UU

If you nerf Seed Flare, Shaymin goes to UT.

[TohnR]

12 hours ago, Bertolfoso said:

Weather imo is very brainless in UU and i have been wanting to see action on it for a good while. I also think Entei is potentially too much 

Weather is brainless by definition tho, but I don't believe it to be banworthy for now. Especially with how non weather teams can easily bring rain & sun abusers or sand setters.
There is also a high amount of powerfull priorities available in UU which are generally fairly good against weather teams (Band Entei, Bisharp, Ambipom, Machamp, Medicham ...) and even some teams which can speedcreep and onehit Sun or Rain abusers (using speed boost options like Ninjask, or scarf Crobat).

Obviously, it's hard to tank a banded fire move from Entei under the sun, but so was it for Arcanine and it never rly was an issue before 🙂 

[Onraider]

30 minutes ago, TohnR said:

 

Obviously, it's hard to tank a banded fire move from Entei under the sun, but so was it for Arcanine and it never rly was an issue before 🙂 

Main difference between entei and k9 is that sacred fire has no recoil and is a non contact move, unlike k9 which was managed with flare blitz recoil plus stuff like rocky helm, plus not even talking abt the 50% burn chance which is amazing to get that chip required for any 2hko kind of situations later

 

Edited January 10 by Onraider

[Godhelll]

10 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

If you nerf Seed Flare, Shaymin goes to UT.

But what I am sure of is that Shaymin would have utilities and that at least it would be playable in UU and maybe even potentially in NU later, which would be preferable instead of leaving the pokemon as he currently is in OU : absent from the game.

 

 

Edited January 10 by Godhelll

[FlacuSkye]

There's no point in nerfing Seed Flare, because it would also mean the same could be done for all mons sitting in BL1; nerfing Haxorus by removing Swords/Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot/Swords Dance on Lucario, Flare Blitz on Darmanitan, etc etc.

[AwaXGoku]

Adjustement/ Complex ban are only reserved for pokemon that need to get ban from OU.

[Bertolfoso]

9 hours ago, TohnR said:

Weather is brainless by definition tho, but I don't believe it to be banworthy for now. Especially with how non weather teams can easily bring rain & sun abusers or sand setters.
There is also a high amount of powerfull priorities available in UU which are generally fairly good against weather teams (Band Entei, Bisharp, Ambipom, Machamp, Medicham ...) and even some teams which can speedcreep and onehit Sun or Rain abusers (using speed boost options like Ninjask, or scarf Crobat).

Obviously, it's hard to tank a banded fire move from Entei under the sun, but so was it for Arcanine and it never rly was an issue before 🙂 

By brainless i mean more that it's a match up check, you can outplay but you are forced to unless you bring those anti offense options.

 

Also I might be close minded, but seeing something like crobat run scarf is a sign of unhealthiness in my opinion. Not even in gen9 where speed tiers are insane there are base 130s running scarf. Also yes entei is way better than arcanine (stat crept, better fire move, most importantly amazing speed)

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, AwaXGoku said:

Adjustement/ Complex ban are only reserved for pokemon that need to get ban from OU.

Complex ban Mewtwo/ Rayquaza when

Spoiler

I know it won't happen and why, just making a small poke into devs' policy of "no ubers"

 

Edited January 10 by RysPicz

[Godhelll]

3 hours ago, FlacuSkye said:

There's no point in nerfing Seed Flare, because it would also mean the same could be done for all mons sitting in BL1; nerfing Haxorus by removing Swords/Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot/Swords Dance on Lucario, Flare Blitz on Darmanitan, etc etc.

I know, I was just suggesting that for Shaymin, but then in this case, it's a fantastic idea to introduce a legendary that cost 2 millions and that it ends up being unplayable, lack of adjustement

 

But to make broken Pokemons like Gallade and Hydreigon on the other hand, there's no problem making changes XDD

 

Some logic is beyond me but it's not very dramatic

 

But no worries, we'll look at pokemons in our boxes without being able to play them, it's not a big deal, it's probably me who's crazy jajaja

 

If the rules say so, then we are not going to remake the world XD

 

 

Edited January 10 by Godhelll

[ArtOfKilling]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:05 AM, Bertolfoso said:

Well the burden of proof is on you, so if you want a discussion about Qwilfish to be started, you should start it.

 

About Qwilfish, I really don't believe it to be too strong. There is plenty of offensive counterplay and, while there may not be many (in number) defensive counters, those that exist are quite solid and easily splashable. SD can't be set up freely, there are specific pokemon Qwil sets up on, which makes it easier to plan around.

 

This is not meant to be a personal attack at all, but you may have this opinion because the teams you use have a big Qwilfish weakness, more than it being overall too strong for the tier.

I really didn't have the energy to answer this but reading the replies that people think Qwilfish isn't a strong mon in NU currently is not true.

Go ahead explain to me why Qwilfish has this win percentage if its not strong in NU currently?

If you want to counter it you legit have to either play balance/stall Quagsire which is a mon that doesn't fit offensive playstyles or even Slowbro if chipped can be in a +2 gunk shot range. Gunk Shot gen9 move?! if it wasn't there probably this would've been a different discussion

what are the checks? Qwilfish Impish vs Qwilfish SD? who wins that one?

Only legit answers that gain safety without specific items are Ferroseed/Quagsire/Sceptile anything else can be threatened with SD and setting it up isn't hard, and you can do it against many mons, and let's not forget the amount of mons that can be in good range of +2 aqua jet. Any other scarfer can be in range of it and die. Gunk shot is a no contact move and avoids rocky helmet aswell.

Forcing players to use a specific playstyle/teams to feel safe against it is overpowered.
+2 252+ Atk Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 91-108 (66.9 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
+2 252+ Atk Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 76-90 (60.8 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

No hard feelings everyone is entitled to their opinion

 

Edited January 12 by ArtOfKilling

[caioxlive13]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:51 PM, Bertolfoso said:

 Also I might be close minded, but seeing something like crobat run scarf is a sign of unhealthiness in my opinion. Not even in gen9 where speed tiers are insane there are base 130s running scarf. Also yes entei is way better than arcanine (stat crept, better fire move, most importantly amazing speed)

There is only one 130+ base in gen 9 possibly running scarf: Deoxys-S for same reason than Gen 4 Ubers. Possibly win an speedtie vs other deoxys(And this strat is pretty ridiculous in G9 since an Mental herb + Taunt shuts down Scarf Deo if they became a issue and ensure the non-scarf variant do what is supposed to do). 

Talking about entei to stay on topic: Entei and Arcanine are very close. Entei has beter stats overall, better speed, good fire move(In comparison to flare blitz is almost same dmg, but while flare has the advantage of no missing, Sacred has the advantage of 40% extra chance to burn + No recoil to user.). There is one thing however that arcanine have that entei don't: A good fight-type move. Best option for entei is literally Rock Smash, unless you wanna go with HP Fighting or Sash Reversal which is pretty mediocre for him., while arcanine has CC. That's the only thing that Arcanine is better than entei

 

Edited January 12 by caioxlive13

[ArtOfKilling]

 

On 1/10/2024 at 10:12 PM, AwaXGoku said:

Adjustement/ Complex ban are only reserved for pokemon that need to get ban from OU.

I'm curious about the idea that it's reserved exclusively for Pokémon that need to be banned from OU. It seems like if such a rule exists, there might be instances where it's not strictly followed. I've noticed some situations where the same individuals involved in creating these rules sometimes seem to deviate from them. It could be interesting to explore how these rules are applied consistently. "Coughs in Gallade and Shaymin"

Edited January 12 by ArtOfKilling

[epicdavenport]

1 hour ago, ArtOfKilling said:

 

I'm curious about the idea that it's reserved exclusively for Pokémon that need to be banned from OU. It seems like if such a rule exists, there might be instances where it's not strictly followed. I've noticed some situations where the same individuals involved in creating these rules sometimes seem to deviate from them. It could be interesting to explore how these rules are applied consistently. "Coughs in Gallade and Shaymin"

Should just bring back banning stuff to Ubers instead of trying to fix it. 

[Bertolfoso]

6 hours ago, ArtOfKilling said:

I really didn't have the energy to answer this but reading the replies that people think Qwilfish isn't a strong mon in NU currently is not true.

Go ahead explain to me why Qwilfish has this win percentage if its not strong in NU currently?

I think there has been some misunderstanding. I didn't want to claim that Qwil is not a strong pokemon in NU. What I meant is "...I really don't believe it to be too strong (for NU)". I simply believe that it isn't banworthy. 

 

6 hours ago, ArtOfKilling said:

+2 252+ Atk Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 91-108 (66.9 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
+2 252+ Atk Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 76-90 (60.8 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

These calcs show that there is more offensive counterplay. These physically frail pokemon with no bulk investment require quite a bit of chip for them to be in range of +2 adamant jet. Which means that when you play, you can't overload them with many tasks if they are your only speed control/revenge killers, There are also other faster pokemon for offense that need a lot of chip to be in range, not including sceptile as you have already mentioned it, like Tauros, Scyther, Froslass can troll it a bit (deny setup, wisp, dbond) or kill if offensive, Sharpedo with EQ or just special, Rotom Fan, Braviary denies it entry, Drapion, and Sawsbuck and Gardevoir if you're feeling spicy (there are more but less viable/used). It also needs to be careful around blastoise as it can be set up fodder for it if it isn't +2 or if Gunk misses.

There is less counterplay for more balanced builds, as it is to expect from a SD mon, but still other than slowtwins (which require a lot of chip) and quag/ferroseed, you can use druddigon (glare/phasing/eq), physdef lanturn trades, defensive qwil (twave,taunt), skuntank (though flinch chance if you're slow), Ferroseed/Musharna but you're already on the low usage side.

 

7 hours ago, ArtOfKilling said:

...setting it up isn't hard, and you can do it against many mons...

  I quite disagree with this. Qwil can set up safely in front only of specific mons, such as Hitmontop, bronzor (only if lucky), Audino (usually accompanied by Quagsire), Physical/Mixed Houndoom and Hariyama. I think i got them all, but please do correct me if I missed any.

 

I invite you to play with Qwilfish yourself so that you can understand its weaknesses better

[ArtOfKilling]

8 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

I think there has been some misunderstanding. I didn't want to claim that Qwil is not a strong pokemon in NU. What I meant is "...I really don't believe it to be too strong (for NU)". I simply believe that it isn't banworthy. 

 

These calcs show that there is more offensive counterplay. These physically frail pokemon with no bulk investment require quite a bit of chip for them to be in range of +2 adamant jet. Which means that when you play, you can't overload them with many tasks if they are your only speed control/revenge killers, There are also other faster pokemon for offense that need a lot of chip to be in range, not including sceptile as you have already mentioned it, like Tauros, Scyther, Froslass can troll it a bit (deny setup, wisp, dbond) or kill if offensive, Sharpedo with EQ or just special, Rotom Fan, Braviary denies it entry, Drapion, and Sawsbuck and Gardevoir if you're feeling spicy (there are more but less viable/used). It also needs to be careful around blastoise as it can be set up fodder for it if it isn't +2 or if Gunk misses.

There is less counterplay for more balanced builds, as it is to expect from a SD mon, but still other than slowtwins (which require a lot of chip) and quag/ferroseed, you can use druddigon (glare/phasing/eq), physdef lanturn trades, defensive qwil (twave,taunt), skuntank (though flinch chance if you're slow), Ferroseed/Musharna but you're already on the low usage side.

 

  I quite disagree with this. Qwil can set up safely in front only of specific mons, such as Hitmontop, bronzor (only if lucky), Audino (usually accompanied by Quagsire), Physical/Mixed Houndoom and Hariyama. I think i got them all, but please do correct me if I missed any.

 

I invite you to play with Qwilfish yourself so that you can understand its weaknesses better

I understand that all of what you just mentioned are considered faster than qwilfish and can phase it out, but you’re forgetting that this is a valuable argument if we are talking about a 1v1 position not a 6vs6. I’ve played qwilfish multiple times myself. It isnt a wallbreaker nor a mon that should be bought early game. It’s a mid to late game cleanser and bringing it early to the field defies its purpose. Also with black sludge it somewhat  gains survivability to be brought once or twice in certain positions not necessarily to sweep but to intimidate for example and switch out until its time comes. It needs support too not like its a mon that can do the whole job on its own and I’m not ashamed of saying this the amount if times I lost almost win games while facing qwilfish was disgusting due to the scenarios where it has all boxes checked for it to sweep correctly. And you do know that you have to make sacrifices sometimes because you’re obviously not countering or reacting to it alone but to other 5 mons including it.

can setup vs escavlier/all fighting types that get locked ir don’t have super effective moves/bronzor/golbat/ any intimidated mon which is either locked on a move or is outside a 1hko range from qwill after intimidation and is slower. 

And yes im not saying ban it but atleast consider some nerfs or gunk shot removal or sd removal or whatever. I know it’s not gonna get touched anyway but im just if im the only one who thinks it’s just too much lately or not

[SakuyaZ]

18 hours ago, ArtOfKilling said:

I understand that all of what you just mentioned are considered faster than qwilfish and can phase it out, but you’re forgetting that this is a valuable argument if we are talking about a 1v1 position not a 6vs6. I’ve played qwilfish multiple times myself. It isnt a wallbreaker nor a mon that should be bought early game. It’s a mid to late game cleanser and bringing it early to the field defies its purpose. Also with black sludge it somewhat  gains survivability to be brought once or twice in certain positions not necessarily to sweep but to intimidate for example and switch out until its time comes. It needs support too not like its a mon that can do the whole job on its own and I’m not ashamed of saying this the amount if times I lost almost win games while facing qwilfish was disgusting due to the scenarios where it has all boxes checked for it to sweep correctly. And you do know that you have to make sacrifices sometimes because you’re obviously not countering or reacting to it alone but to other 5 mons including it.

can setup vs escavlier/all fighting types that get locked ir don’t have super effective moves/bronzor/golbat/ any intimidated mon which is either locked on a move or is outside a 1hko range from qwill after intimidation and is slower. 

And yes im not saying ban it but atleast consider some nerfs or gunk shot removal or sd removal or whatever. I know it’s not gonna get touched anyway but im just if im the only one who thinks it’s just too much lately or not

 Ferroseed/Quagsire/Sceptile are solutions,  Ask them to release HA Seismitoad too, and also  try evo Frillish/Clefairy, Shedinja as well. Scrafer included above mention but also like Cinccino, Braviary,with ability like  Sharpedo, Ditto, still able to hold the damage from aqua jet after sd and life orb. For sure, Qwilfish is a mid to late game cleanser, but Imo not yet to get nerf on it. 

[Munya]

Dugtrio will remain banned from UU, Haxorus discussion has started.

[Munya]

Haxorus remaining banned, moving on to Lucarios UU ban.