February 2024 Movement Discussion

[Munya]

First tier change in a cycle, 5.5% and up to move up, 3% and below to go down

 

Nothing is changing via usage.

 

We will however be placing Moltres in the UU Tier when it drops.

 

Draco Meteor test on Hydreigon has concluded, the move Draco Meteor on Hydreigon will be banned from competitive play in OU.

[Imperial]

I asked Rache about this and she said it was best to raise it here with Tier Council.

 

Why do you guys currently find Acupressure not to be a problem right now when although it's RNG dependent and Quagsire fully counters it (e.g. Drapion in NU), the ability Moody was banned and it also clearly breaks the Evasion Clause making it uncompetitive?

 

I feel regardless of how bad the Pokemon is using it (e.g. Tentacruel/Drapion) we should not be allowing such uncompetitive stuff like this - just to clarify my issue is with the Evasion boost rather than anything else.

 

Would TC consider banning/nerfing this since it's entirely your decision?

 

Edited January 28 by Imperial

[RysPicz]

3 hours ago, Imperial said:

I asked Rache about this and she said it was best to raise it here with Tier Council.

 

Why do you guys currently find Acupressure not to be a problem right now when although it's RNG dependent and Quagsire fully counters it (e.g. Drapion in NU), the ability Moody was banned and it also clearly breaks the Evasion Clause making it uncompetitive?

 

I feel regardless of how bad the Pokemon is using it (e.g. Tentacruel/Drapion) we should not be allowing such uncompetitive stuff like this - just to clarify my issue is with the Evasion boost rather than anything else.

 

Would TC consider banning/nerfing this since it's entirely your decision?

 

I would opt to remove evasiveness boosts from Acupressure's pool, that should fix it fairly well.

[caioxlive13]

About acupressure remove the Evasion hax i think should be positive and also do something about Evasion increase on serperior. No one touched it but i think we should because it's uncompetitive as well. I'm not talking about Singles, because it rely on your opponent's actions to happen and can be a way to punish free defog, something we don't have in ages. i'm talking about doubles where you can aim Defog vs your own serperior and raise evasion on purpose. But for that, instead of touching on Serperior, just make Defog unable to hit your own pokemon, just opponents. This kill this cheap strat, and let the others legit, untouched.

[Munya]

I think last time Acupressure was brought up it either neither made it to a thread phase or it got voted against, both basically had the same outcome, not saying its not an issue now i just know it was discussed at some point in the past.

 

Shaymin is remaining BL1, it was a fairly split vote though, some thought with new additions such as entei and soon to be moltres and with some other things being more prevalent, that might have made it worth being tested.

 

Talking about Starraptor now.

[RysPicz]

54 minutes ago, Munya said:

Talking about Starraptor now.

It's Staraptor smh

[Munya]

Wait until I have to type Hippowdon and type Hippodown or Hippodon instead.

[caioxlive13]

3 hours ago, Munya said:

I think last time Acupressure was brought up it either neither made it to a thread phase or it got voted against, both basically had the same outcome, not saying its not an issue now i just know it was discussed at some point in the past.

It's not blanty Overpowered but is contraditory, also the move is uncompetitive because you can evade evasion clasule without a legitimate reason, and if you does you could probablly win from there. When i say legit reason, is on the like to punish something like Serperior punishing "free" defogs. Also, people complained about KR Cloyster when it wasn't a problem and sitted at 0.9 use(After the complaints rose it to 40%~50% use on cloysters) so the argument of not an issue now for RNG Mechanics, last time we applied, we let people abuse and then became a problem. Is not now because no one figured yet a way to abuse Acupressure.

 

Spoiler

Also speaking from RNG mechanichs that could be reworked, why not remove Freeze from the game and put Frostbite instead? Frostbite to ones who didn't know, acts as a Burn for special attackers, halving Special moves's power. This came from Legends Arceus. Drowsing couldn't replace sleep due to yawn already having one condition call drowsy(that makes you sleep at end of following turn) and making players get confused, but Frostbite could and this could remove one RNG-mechanic from the game.

  

Edited January 28 by caioxlive13

[epicdavenport]

Though I'm sad Moltres is going to be UU I'm excited to see how my rain Moltres idea is going to pan out.

 

[Necroze]

🐦

[Munya]

Staraptor remains banned.

 

First topic of discussion from BL2 with the most support of all of the discussions we had is Roserades ban to BL2.  Its currently also UU by usage but not by a lot.

 

Roserade will technically remain BL2 for now but have an asterisk on its name on my personal list in the event it ever drops below the cutoff again to signal a vote to actually test it at that time, there was pretty overwhelming support for unleashing this one if we could right now.

 

Talking about Rhyperior now which is below the cutoff and capable of dropping right now if it garnered the support.

[Munya]

The OU Draco Meteor ban on Hydreigon was deployed early this morning so is in game as we speak, can find a link to the discussion thread in the OP.

Continuing to leave this thread open for further discussion updates until they are concluded(which isn't much left).

[Munya]

With the addition of complex bans we are currently discussing giving SD back to Garchomp as well as returning Shadow Tag to its unnerfed state.  If anybody has anything they would like to say about either of those things.

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, Munya said:

With the addition of complex bans we are currently discussing giving SD back to Garchomp as well as returning Shadow Tag to its unnerfed state.  If anybody has anything they would like to say about either of those things.

UNLEASH THE CHOMP

[Ziiiiio]

9分钟前，Munya 说：

Shadow Tag to its unnerfed state

Ban tickle as well, Encore+tickle+pursuit or dugdrio is broken and boring

[Frag]

Hone claws mixed chomp is a good wallbreaker, most of time it uses gem to secure a kill or lum berry to get momentum and kill something, so like many wallbreakers it does the 1-1 trade with another mon.

 

Sd chomp is a broken wallbreaker, it doesnt need gem or lum berry to do the work, instead it uses yache berry to stay in the field after do his thing.

 

I'm not speculating, when chomp was released with sd, yache was the most spammed item on it.

 

 

About Wobbu: XD

 

Why is trio not banned yet.

[Godhelll]

Imo SD shouldn't get unbanned on Garchomp it's way too broken

[Munya]

It would be doubles only.

[atlewis]

In doubles I assume, not in OU, but we need Munya to confirm, nvm he beat me to it

 

Edited January 31 by atlewis
munya ninja'd me

[VadimEmpoleon]

I think SD Garchomp would be fine for Doubles, earthquake is a multi-target move so it doesn't hit as hard as in singles.

Regarding Shadow Tag, this ability is uncompetitive in Singles and in its nerfed state it is not good enough, I don't think there is any fix possible for Shadow Tag on Singles so reverting it back to its unnerfed state and making it only playable in Doubles seems like a good idea.

It would also be a good idea to consider adding Speed Boost Blaziken and Shaymin Sky for Doubles, I am not sure if they would be too broken though.

[GodobitoFF]

3 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

I think SD Garchomp would be fine for Doubles, earthquake is a multi-target move so it doesn't hit as hard as in singles.

Regarding Shadow Tag, this ability is uncompetitive in Singles and in its nerfed state it is not good enough, I don't think there is any fix possible for Shadow Tag on Singles so reverting it back to its unnerfed state and making it only playable in Doubles seems like a good idea.

It would also be a good idea to consider adding Speed Boost Blaziken and Shaymin Sky for Doubles, I am not sure if they would be too broken though.

@Munya sería interesante que ahora comenzaríamos con la conversación de shaymin sky o incluso blaziken con su habilidad oculta podríamos probar cosas nuevas en ou que le den un giro totalmente al asunto no? Estaría interesante de ver

[Rakhmaninov]

16 hours ago, Munya said:

With the addition of complex bans we are currently discussing giving SD back to Garchomp as well as returning Shadow Tag to its unnerfed state.  If anybody has anything they would like to say about either of those things.

Very grateful for this, it would give the doubles metagame a good shake up, zapdos+garchomp are going to be even more popular than they already are...

 

11 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

I think SD Garchomp would be fine for Doubles, earthquake is a multi-target move so it doesn't hit as hard as in singles.

Regarding Shadow Tag, this ability is uncompetitive in Singles and in its nerfed state it is not good enough, I don't think there is any fix possible for Shadow Tag on Singles so reverting it back to its unnerfed state and making it only playable in Doubles seems like a good idea.

It would also be a good idea to consider adding Speed Boost Blaziken and Shaymin Sky for Doubles, I am not sure if they would be too broken though.

Shaymin Sky may be a bit too much for the doubles meta at the moment - STAB serene grace seed flare and air slash make it really deadly in the right hands. It does however get walled by zapdos, and metagross unless it runs earth power

 

@OrangeManiac thoughts on this?

[Zuladra]

On 1/28/2024 at 10:13 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Also speaking from RNG mechanichs that could be reworked, why not remove Freeze from the game and put Frostbite instead? Frostbite to ones who didn't know, acts as a Burn for special attackers, halving Special moves's power. This came from Legends Arceus. Drowsing couldn't replace sleep due to yawn already having one condition call drowsy(that makes you sleep at end of following turn) and making players get confused, but Frostbite could and this could remove one RNG-mechanic from the game.

Interesting suggestion that would make ice types more relevant, especially in doubles.

[OrangeManiac]

2 hours ago, Rakhmaninov said:

Very grateful for this, it would give the doubles metagame a good shake up, zapdos+garchomp are going to be even more popular than they already are...

 

Shaymin Sky may be a bit too much for the doubles meta at the moment - STAB serene grace seed flare and air slash make it really deadly in the right hands. It does however get walled by zapdos, and metagross unless it runs earth power

 

@OrangeManiac thoughts on this?

Swords Dance never deserved to be removed from Garchomp to begin with, in regards to Doubles. In the current state of the meta, Swords Dance Garchomp would become an absolute game changer. Garchomp is already strong but Intimidates have always been its main downfall. Now that it can boost more than getting affected by Intimidate in a turn, teambuilding will completely change. That being said, for the life of me, I can't call it broken because it's a mon that literally gets crippled by one of the most common speed control moves in the game (Icy Wind). So people would just shift counter Chomp from Intimidates to Icy Wind and I think that's probably fine.

 

While I thought that Hydreigon having access to Draco is actually mandatory for healthy Doubles metagame (to punish mindless set up, but also the -2 drawback is massive for future turns), I don't think the game needs SD Garchomp. But in all honesty, Garchomp never deserved to have its Swords Dance removed from Doubles point of view.

 

What comes to Shaymin-Sky...

 

I know you all like to complain how relevant flinches are in Doubles. You remember those moments when a Tyranitar Rock Slide or Togekiss flinch decided the game. Anyone who has played more than 10 games of Doubles has experienced this. Then we remember Tyranitar and Togekiss are actually some of the slowest Pokemon in the entire metagame outspeeding barely half of the metagame and they still have such a huge effect on the game with their flinch moves.

 

With Shaymin-Sky, you have a Pokemon that essentially outspeeds the entire metagame besides Crobat with 60% chance to flinch its target. You have essentially a Scarf Togekiss, on steroids, without the drawback of being locked to a Choice Item. Oh and if that wasn't bad enough, you have a Serene Grace boosted Seed Flare that is basically always guaranteed to go first. Practically a Fake Tears 80% of the time, that also does 120 STAB damage. Neat. All in all, just absolutely no, it makes the whole gameplay an absolute meme that we do not need or want.

[Rakhmaninov]

I wonder if swords dance garchomp is being tested for the possible introduction of jirachi...