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April 2022-Movement Discussion Thread


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New season, 4.36% to move up or down.

 

OU is untouched.

 

To UU from NU:

Gligar
Toxicroak
Venusaur

 

To NU from UU:

Electrode

 

 

Remember, this thread is for discussion, these may not be final.

We will also be concluding our vote for KR/RF during this voting cycle.

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1 hour ago, Munya said:

New season, 4.36% to move up or down.

 

OU is untouched.

 

To UU from NU:

Gligar
Toxicroak
Venusaur

 

To NU from UU:

Electrode

 

 

Remember, this thread is for discussion, these may not be final.

We will also be concluding our vote for KR/RF during this voting cycle.

Can send who ones "moved up" to NU from UT, and who ones "fall" to UT from NU?

About KR/RF, in my opinion, have things more worse to deal with, like absurd wall cores Togekiss Scarfed + Air Slash + Serene Grace, for example if you mon aren't scarf, you need to rely too much on luck to survive, unless you have a inner focus mon or some mon that can deal damage to togekiss, higher than damage than you takes(You take ~10% damage and kiss for some miracle receives leech seed.). And item for now, keeps a low-usage item, that wasn't expected for OP items(Please, don't come with the excuse that community recognize that thing is uncompetitive and don't use, because i sayed on other posts: Novice Players don't have good sense. Everything that players with "elo higher" consider OverPowered, is Spammed on Metagaming(Isn't without reason that KR is the most used in cloyster, but nobody that are Veteran/Top Rank(Except KDgogogo and everyone that copy their team) use this itens), we've seen this.)

Edited by caioxlive13
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Venusaur feels like a great move to me. It's range of damage and support sets made pokemon like Blaziken more difficult to deal with. Something like Vileplume will probably take it's place but it isn't as bulky or fast.

 

Edit: I don't feel the same about the Toxicroak movement as it makes a decent counter to a few things in the NU tier namely Sharpedo and Feraligatr. Poliwrath fills a similar spot to this but lacks the power for easier KOs that croak has and leans more toward a stall/bulky set up.

Edited by epicdavenport
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Lmao okay which braindead players spammed Venusaur enough to make it rise to UU and please explain why when Roserade is completely viable in the tier

 

I'm not saying it's bad, it's pretty good in OU for example, but I never see it used in tournaments etc so I would love to know who it was

 

Edited by Imperial
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8 hours ago, Munya said:

Electrode is currently being discussed for a quickban under Uber Support characteristics,

 

For the sake of not needing to rush a thread open, will go ahead and put this here and we can discuss it in this thread since this will all be done under the current voting cycle.

last time it was nu it had no impact on the metagame screens just became a thing. i don't see any valid reason to only ban it in never used the mon does the same thing in uu. Just because it's fast set screens always and got great support moves you should not ban it. (i personally rly hate screens but yea i don't think its ban worthy its rather annoying then broken) i also would like to know why electrode is maybe is uber support in nu and never considered in uu? the only difference i can think of is that uu have krookodile a scarfer that can savely ohko it without risking get parad but the problem with that is you lock yourself in a ground move vs setup team what could be not ideal if they have levitated setup pokemon. 

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14 hours ago, Munya said:

Electrode is currently being discussed for a quickban under Uber Support characteristics,

 

For the sake of not needing to rush a thread open, will go ahead and put this here and we can discuss it in this thread since this will all be done under the current voting cycle.

In this metagaming, electrode does the same that Serperior does before, in NU. Set up Screens. The only difference is: Electrode is more faster than Serperior. 

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7 hours ago, Quinn010 said:

last time it was nu it had no impact on the metagame screens just became a thing.

No. Last time Electrode was NU it popularized screen teams, when it left NU screen teams tried to stay alive by using other setters (Serperior, Froslass mainly). They still kinda work, but are way worse than they were with Electrode, simply because their screens setter won't have 150 speed, making it vulnerable to Taunt or a hit from anything faster.

7 hours ago, Quinn010 said:

i don't see any valid reason to only ban it in never used the mon does the same thing in uu.

This argument is just terrible, if you think it's banworthy in UU then write a detailed post about it. Something being banworthy in a certain tier doesn't mean it's banworthy everywhere else, unless it's something extremely uncompetitive like Hax Items or Arena Trap. That is not the case here with Electrode. Also while the role performed by Electrode in NU or UU is the same, that doesn't mean both tiers are prepared the same way for the kind of playstyle that involves Electrode. NU barely has any decent walls to begin with, and the most common scarf Pokemons are either slow as shit, or just can't OHKO Trode at all. Tell me how that's the same in UU.

7 hours ago, Quinn010 said:

Just because it's fast set screens always and got great support moves you should not ban it. (i personally rly hate screens but yea i don't think its ban worthy its rather annoying then broken)

You just gave one of the main reasons as to why it should be banned, then say we should not ban it. Sounds legit.

 

Honestly the rest of the post is not worth replying, since it kinda touches the same point with what you wrote earlier. I'll just say I'm pretty sure you've seen that team I built the last time Electrode was NU, the one which effortlessly beat you know who, in a TT final, in less than 3 minutes? I'm self-aware enough to know that shit should not be legal. 

Edited by LifeStyleNORE
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44 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I just say I'm pretty sure you've seen that team I built the last time Electrode was NU, the one which effortlessly beat you know who, in a TT final, in less than 3 minutes? I'm self-aware enough to know that shit should not be legal. 

Guy just stomped Lord Voldemort in a TT finals. 

Nice one 

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Electrode can set up screens with TAUNT and STATIC support!!!! SO SCARY!!! I'm going to have nightmares, please ban! My brain is not enough powerful to break through screens. 

 

39 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

NU barely has any decent walls to begin with, and the most common scarf Pokemons are either slow as shit, or just can't OHKO Trode at all. Tell me how that's the same in UU.

What do walls have to do with Electrode anyways??!? Screens are used to set up vs things that would otherwise OHKO you. Alomomola is not going to OHKO with Toxic or Scald. Same thign with Golbat or Bronzor and nearly all walls. Walls are not designed to OHKO stuff. NU lack of decent walls is completly irrelevant in this matter. 

 

45 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

NU barely has any decent walls to begin with, and the most common scarf Pokemons are either slow as shit, or just can't OHKO Trode at all. Tell me how that's the same in UU.

Who cares? Why on earth would you try to OHKO Electrode? Electrode does nothing. The only relevant Scarf users I can think of that can OHKO Electrode without the risk of static are Krook, Garchomp and Dugtrio. Are you suggesting that Electrode would be a problem if it wasn't for Krook in UU? Really? (PZ is BL)

 

 

Screens are barely viable, not broken and not rng based. Why this huge push to prevent that playstyle from being viable? Stop banning things just become it's new territory. We also have tons of crit monsters in NU like Absol that have no problem whatsoever ignoring screens. We have Piloswine coming into Electrode and making fun of it. A scarf user like Rotom can simply trick in front of Electrode. Whimsicott with infiltrator or prankster fucks electrode as well. Even fucking Slowking can laughs in the face of Electrode, especially if it carries Teleport instead of an electric move (that would deal no dmg). Seriously, this is plain stupid. Use your heads instead of banning stuff you didn't spend more than half a second to play against. 

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2 hours ago, Tawla said:

Feraligatr looks op now in NU

It's definitely a strong choice but I feel like there are currently things that still wall it well mostly in Poliwrath. Venusaur could come in for a revenge kill if it's faster but 1 dragon dance allows ice punch to one shot if Feraligatr is holding life orb.

 

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 169-200 (109 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

Anybody can obviously go with a more physically defensive Venu but then it'll lack the power and speed it favors instead.

 

 

 

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Honestly, Electrode can be a problem everywhere, even in OU there are plenty of dual screen Electrode teams that can mess you up if you're not careful. And in all tiers, there are ways to overcome this. If your team doesn't have anything to stop those kind of shenanigans... well that's on you. 

GB's done a great job of listing various ways to deal with screens in NU. And let's not forget their greatest counter - Defog, a move that's run on 90% of all teams. One move to undo all the progress in the first few turns, given that you don't get taunted yourself, but an opportunity can still be found.

Is Electrode annoying? Very much so. Is it broken? Definitely not. It does give the chance to let some dangerous Pokemon set up more safely, but there are also ways of dealing with set up stats.

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17 hours ago, StrengthPolicy said:

1- Honestly, Electrode can be a problem everywhere, even in OU there are plenty of dual screen Electrode teams that can mess you up if you're not careful. And in all tiers, there are ways to overcome this. If your team doesn't have anything to stop those kind of shenanigans... well that's on you. 

2- GB's done a great job of listing various ways to deal with screens in NU. And let's not forget their greatest counter - Defog, a move that's run on 90% of all teams. One move to undo all the progress in the first few turns, given that you don't get taunted yourself, but an opportunity can still be found.

3- Is Electrode annoying? Very much so. Is it broken? Definitely not. It does give the chance to let some dangerous Pokemon set up more safely, but there are also ways of dealing with set up stats.

Let me try to analyze it in my perspective. 

 

1- Context is needed in every tiering decision, especially when it comes to a potential uber support characteristic:
In OU, screens are paired with Cloyster/Volcarona/Conkeldurr/Scizor/etc... However, in most cases, all those Pokemon can be handled by already common Pokemon (Dragons/Gyarados for Volcarona - Rotom-W/Scizor/Magnezone for Cloyster - Cofagrigus/Hippowdon for Conkeldurr, etc.)

 

In UU screens are paired with Venomoth/ Azumarill/ Scrafty /Blastoise/ Bisharp, etc etc. Again, common Pokemon that handle them already exist in the tier:  (Crobat for Venomoth/Scrafty - Mandibuzz/Vaporeon for Azumarill - Heracross prevents Bisharp/Scrafty from sweeping, etc - Blastoise is probably the trickiest of the bunch, but still is easily phased by Empoleon if it doesnt pack EQ or hazed by Vaporeon or whatever similar)

 

In NU things change. The tier is much more offensive and the walls mostly comprise of the same few things. Also, unlike OU and, at some extent, UU, NU's offensive metagame is frailer, with less key resistances, meaning they won't be eating many hits at all (Compare how different it is with OU, where Scizor and dragons can take plenty of hits) 

Because of this, you are forced to have walls in order to stop set up mons. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. However, how consistently can these walls stop those set up mons? Not much. Feraligatr, for instance, has one very shaky answer in the form of Quagsire, which is by itself abusable. Everything else lies in the bottom pit of usage (Tangrowth - Leafeon) so they are irrelevant. Most Gallade/Drapion's answers rely on being able to pressure them hard enough and quickly, which is no longer the case with screens (EX:  How jolly golbat was used for gallade, or how steelix beats drapion).

 

But now you are asking: How is that different from setting screens with already existing stuff like Froslass/Espeon/Serperior?

Again, context is needed and you should be asking instead: How consistently can the already existing stuff set screens, how can they be played around by the enemy, and how does Electrode sets itself apart from them?

 

First electrode is much faster, meaning it no longer has to rely on a few speedtiers to set their screens (It also can taunt more Pokemon)

Second Electrode has some moves that make their team gain momentum after setting screens - Volt switch /Explosion/Teleport. Froslass and Serperior have not.

Third, Electrode has a much better defensive typing than all of the others, meaning it can set up screens against more Pokemon.

Fourth, although this is not very relevant, Electrode has an useful passable ability all others lack - Static- But I won't go deeper into this one.

Finally, as a bonus point, let's look at the top usage mon: Blaziken (I told you context mattered). How many common fast screen setters can set up against it? None, they are all outsped and ohkoed. Electrode, however, is faster than even scarf blaziken, and can easily set both screens against it, otherwise the chicken is forced out. And, honestly, the difference between being able to set up against the top used mon and being unable to do so, in any tier, is huge.

In any other words, Electrode is able to set screens against more stuff, which means it makes it easier for others to come into the field next with screens already activated, which also means it is much better at supporting them than whatever we had prior to it. 

 

Ofc not all this is set in stone. Under the right circumstances, Scrafty can sweep even against Crobat, but that's not the point. The point is not only that NU is much worse equipped to deal with boosters than other tiers, which already makes the comparison between tiers invalid, but also that Electrode in NU is so much better than anything else that shares its role that comparing them even in the same tier is equally invalid. Does this make Electrode necessarily Uber support? No, but at the very least makes it potentially discussable.

 

(Yes, Whimsicott is the best answer against any screen team, but that thing is sitting below 3% usage so don't even try to mention it as any sort of argument, thank you).

 

Edited by pachima
clearing out stuff.
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8 hours ago, pachima said:

(Yes, Whimsicott is the best answer against any screen team, but that thing is sitting below 3% usage so don't even try to mention it as any sort of argument, thank you).

 

Why can't it be an argument ? If Electrode makes screen teams usage rise, their counters will rise aswell, the fact that they exist IS an argument. Don't dismiss any argument that doesn't suit you, thank you. 

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11 hours ago, pachima said:

Let me try to analyze it in my perspective. 

 

1- Context is needed in every tiering decision, especially when it comes to a potential uber support characteristic:
In OU, screens are paired with Cloyster/Volcarona/Conkeldurr/Scizor/etc... However, in most cases, all those Pokemon can be handled by already common Pokemon (Dragons/Gyarados for Volcarona - Rotom-W/Scizor/Magnezone for Cloyster - Cofagrigus/Hippowdon for Conkeldurr, etc.)

 

In UU screens are paired with Venomoth/ Azumarill/ Scrafty /Blastoise/ Bisharp, etc etc. Again, common Pokemon that handle them already exist in the tier:  (Crobat for Venomoth/Scrafty - Mandibuzz/Vaporeon for Azumarill - Heracross prevents Bisharp/Scrafty from sweeping, etc - Blastoise is probably the trickiest of the bunch, but still is easily phased by Empoleon if it doesnt pack EQ or hazed by Vaporeon or whatever similar)

 

In NU things change. The tier is much more offensive and the walls mostly comprise of the same few things. Also, unlike OU and, at some extent, UU, NU's offensive metagame is frailer, with less key resistances, meaning they won't be eating many hits at all (Compare how different it is with OU, where Scizor and dragons can take plenty of hits) 

Because of this, you are forced to have walls in order to stop set up mons. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. However, how consistently can these walls stop those set up mons? Not much. Feraligatr, for instance, has one very shaky answer in the form of Quagsire, which is by itself abusable. Everything else lies in the bottom pit of usage (Tangrowth - Leafeon) so they are irrelevant. Most Gallade/Drapion's answers rely on being able to pressure them hard enough and quickly, which is no longer the case with screens (EX:  How jolly golbat was used for gallade, or how steelix beats drapion).

 

Ofc not all this is set in stone. Under the right circumstances, Scrafty can sweep even against Crobat, but that's not the point. The point is not only that NU is much worse equipped to deal with boosters than other tiers, which already makes the comparison between tiers invalid, but also that Electrode in NU is so much better than anything else that shares its role that comparing them even in the same tier is equally invalid. Does this make Electrode necessarily Uber support? No, but at the very least makes it potentially discussable.

 

(Yes, Whimsicott is the best answer against any screen team, but that thing is sitting below 3% usage so don't even try to mention it as any sort of argument, thank you).

 

Why are you justifying Electrode being potentially banworthy based on your own comparision between tiers while invalidating "comparison between tiers" as a an overall argument in this discussion? "You can't compare because these things are different" And yet by using the word different you are making a comparison yourself. I'm sure not everyone agree with your comparison or the conclusions drawn from your comparison, that doesn't make their own views invalid in regard to yours.

Edited by gbwead
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We were told that they would try to change dates of seasonal tournaments so as not to harm UU/NU, but apparently the OU and Doubles tournaments have already happened, so nothing will change as expected. @Munya, in case these changes in NU happen, do you intend to hold until the seasonal tournament date, or will we have to play the most important tournament of the season with sudden changes in the tier without having any time to adapt ONCE AGAIN? a response from you would be very nice as it would give us some time to prepare and test some teams.

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