October 2022 Movement Discussion Thread

[caioxlive13]

17 minutes ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

Stall en ou was always equally viable, I don't see the problem with that... The problem here I think could be the lack of information, it would be useful to know if all the current meta pokes will be HA in this update or not, but it's something that I hope it will be fixed in time before the November changes.

Some mons with HA that will be very common on stall teams

Tangrowth/Amoongus/Slow(Bro and King) , with Regenerator
Gliscor, with Poison Heal
Quagsire with Unaware.

A thing that i consider better solution would be add a Regenerator Clasule. what this mean? You could have a maximum of 1 mon with Poison Heal or Regenerator.

Why not ban those complety? Because Regenerator and Poison Heal itself and combined with one mon alone, wasn't a problem. Those mons without HA wasn't problematic too. Problem starts when you combine 2 of them on a Stall team.

Stall will be with this very strong. Many people will start to abuse from this leading on matches being decided onto system tiebreak with high frequence. Not only that, will make OU tours mainly take some hours to be finished.

Edited October 15, 2022 by caioxlive13

[DARKEN]

yaay i hope ha tangrowth, alolamola and amoongus comes

 

[Munya]

So far, Crobat has been released this morning, so we have Infiltrator Crobat now.

[Imperial]

14 hours ago, Munya said:

I'm not sure if it was stated in the update log, but there is a system put in place that when a new HA mon drops,  it will automatically be banned from lower tiers until it can be evaluated unless its something that is absolutely garbage.

I'm sorry I've only just had a chance to process everything with this new update - could you clarify a few points for me please?

• Will the Pokemon be banned automatically on the same day that the alphas drop, or will there be a few day period? Conscious that there are daily tournaments happening alongside TCL and WC?
• Assuming NU and UT will be the tiers most affected by this update, if they were banned to OU, how long would the evaluation stage last for, and if they were deemed to not be too strong for OU, would they have to follow the OU > UU > NU process like Aerodactyl did, or would they automatically drop back down to NU/UT? Just conscious that people would have to wait an additional 6 months if that were the case based on current usage
• Will monthly usage now be decreased back to 4.36% as the first batch of HAs will now be dropping?

 

I get the surprise factor, but ideally it would be great to get an idea of some upcoming mons so we can prepare, especially for the tournaments mentioned above, TT, etc...

 

Again apologies if I misunderstood anything, just catching up on stuff.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Imperial

[OrangeManiac]

22 minutes ago, Munya said:

So far, Crobat has been released this morning, so we have Infiltrator Crobat now.

I think this is a positive thing for the game, if anything. Not overpowering at all, it just punishes things that have been obnoxious to begin with - like mindless Substitutes and nice that it is at least a small measure one can use against Screens teams in UU.

[Munya]

27 minutes ago, Imperial said:

I'm sorry I've only just had a chance to process everything with this new update - could you clarify a few points for me please?

• Will the Pokemon be banned automatically on the same day that the alphas drop, or will there be a few day period? Conscious that there are daily tournaments happening alongside TCL and WC?
• Assuming NU and UT will be the tiers most affected by this update, if they were banned to OU, how long would the evaluation stage last for, and if they were deemed to not be too strong for OU, would they have to follow the OU > UU > NU process like Aerodactyl did, or would they automatically drop back down to NU/UT? Just conscious that people would have to wait an additional 6 months if that were the case based on current usage
• Will monthly usage now be decreased back to 4.36% as the first batch of HAs will now be dropping?

 

I get the surprise factor, but ideally it would be great to get an idea of some upcoming mons so we can prepare, especially for the tournaments mentioned above, TT, etc...

 

Again apologies if I misunderstood anything, just catching up on stuff.

 

It will be automatic based on past discussions we have had with tier council, not everything will be banned automatically just things that with a likelihood of causing issues in lower tiers.  Crobat for instance did not automatically get banned from UU this morning when it dropped.  

 

There is really no set time for how long evaluation would last for these, it could be anywhere from a day to a month, it really depends on the mon and the direction the TC decides to take with votes on things.

 

Usage based movements is a tricky thing right now.  This months is likely being tossed especially with the addition of Assault Vest, beyond that we haven't really figured it out, but it likely depends on what hidden abilities are introduced and when.  Its all information we(the TC) do not currently have, and even to some extent the devs.  They are randomly being pulled from a batch that was pre-determined but the order is random.

[Imperial]

16 minutes ago, Munya said:

 

It will be automatic based on past discussions we have had with tier council, not everything will be banned automatically just things that with a likelihood of causing issues in lower tiers.  Crobat for instance did not automatically get banned from UU this morning when it dropped.  

 

There is really no set time for how long evaluation would last for these, it could be anywhere from a day to a month, it really depends on the mon and the direction the TC decides to take with votes on things.

 

Usage based movements is a tricky thing right now.  This months is likely being tossed especially with the addition of Assault Vest, beyond that we haven't really figured it out, but it likely depends on what hidden abilities are introduced and when.  Its all information we(the TC) do not currently have, and even to some extent the devs.  They are randomly being pulled from a batch that was pre-determined but the order is random.

Sounds good - thank you.

 

Would you mind clarifying this question for me?

• Assuming NU and UT will be the tiers most affected by this update, if they were banned to OU, how long would the evaluation stage last for, and if they were deemed to not be too strong for OU, would they have to follow the OU > UU > NU process like Aerodactyl did, or would they automatically drop back down to NU/UT? Just conscious that people would have to wait an additional 6 months if that were the case based on current usage

My issue is that NU will be the tier that will be the most unstable again, so any reassurances on this would be great.

[Munya]

I can't say with 100% certainty what would happen with everything, that again is probably a case by case basis.  What I would do is ask the TC for their opinions on each individual thing.  I certainly wouldn't force things in this case to follow the normal falling procedure but it would probably happen with most things unless I get overwhelming support from the members of TC to let it go directly down.

[OrangeManiac]

I really think you guys should abandon usage as a means to create NU until this game is more stable. OU has such enormous amount of usage that even one month is enough to provide enough usage to create UU again. I think NU should be made manually from now on, just discuss with TC that what feels like needs to be NU or not and go with it. Using usage as a reference is fine, if usage shows that something was completely misplaced then I think it's fine to adjust accordingly but as the game is now, usage is almost meaningless for lower tiers because the fluctuation will be so rapid.

[TohnR]

58 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

I really think you guys should abandon usage as a means to create NU until this game is more stable. OU has such enormous amount of usage that even one month is enough to provide enough usage to create UU again. I think NU should be made manually from now on, just discuss with TC that what feels like needs to be NU or not and go with it. Using usage as a reference is fine, if usage shows that something was completely misplaced then I think it's fine to adjust accordingly but as the game is now, usage is almost meaningless for lower tiers because the fluctuation will be so rapid.

I think manually deciding on the UU/NU tier changes based on discussions rather than usage for the next few months is actually a good call. 
Tbh I would also have canceled all shiny tournaments for the time being for UU & NU but that doesn't seem to be something that the team has considered so I guess it will be a pay2win meta for a while 😄 

[EmilioGarras]

Agree, until we figure out maybe the call is to cancel tournaments

[Imperial]

2 hours ago, TohnR said:

I think manually deciding on the UU/NU tier changes based on discussions rather than usage for the next few months is actually a good call. 
Tbh I would also have canceled all shiny tournaments for the time being for UU & NU but that doesn't seem to be something that the team has considered so I guess it will be a pay2win meta for a while 😄 

I kind of disagree with this to an extent, depending on how long they would be 'cancelled' for. For the players not competing in TCL/WC, there would literally be nothing for UU/NU players to do in game except Team Tournament and the exception of team events.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Imperial

[caioxlive13]

44 minutes ago, Imperial said:

I kind of disagree with this to an extent, depending on how long they would be 'cancelled' for. For the players not competing in TCL/WC, there would literally be nothing for UU/NU players to do in game except Team Tournament and the exception of team events.

Or Grand Slam XD

[TohnR]

12 hours ago, Imperial said:

I kind of disagree with this to an extent, depending on how long they would be 'cancelled' for. For the players not competing in TCL/WC, there would literally be nothing for UU/NU players to do in game except Team Tournament and the exception of team events.

Not sure what you mean, there is plenty to do for UU & NU players right now, such as figuring out how the new mons will interact with the existing metagame, building new teams taking HAs into account and testing them on ranked (whether you like it or not, the meta will evolve much faster if people actually play on the matchmaking so we can acquire some relevant data for the future decisions to come)... 

For sure the billionaires that can get handed any mons in a minute don't need time but I'm just talking about making it fair for the rest of the community, at least until all the HAs that are planned get released (which should take roughly 2 weeks as far as I know). Again wasn't saying that all tours should be canceled but it's a bit sad to have a rare shiny Toxicroak on Wednesday while not knowing what changes could occur overnight

[Munya]

I am sure most of you already know, Nidoqueen(and by proxy Nidoking) dropped last night and are currently complex banned with their HA.  Also Lucario but it was already OU so no ban has occurred with it.  We would like to move the pokemon as a whole up to the appropriate tier it should be in while they are evaluated, We want to do this ASAP, like today if we can. if you all would like to give your input now would probably be a good time.

[Imperial]

37 minutes ago, Munya said:

I am sure most of you already know, Nidoqueen(and by proxy Nidoking) dropped last night and are currently complex banned with their HA.  Also Lucario but it was already OU so no ban has occurred with it.  We would like to move the pokemon as a whole up to the appropriate tier it should be in while they are evaluated, We want to do this ASAP, like today if we can. if you all would like to give your input now would probably be a good time.

With the following releases, I would propose the following:

 

Crobat - Already one of the best mons in the UU tier for quite some time, the fact that its HA now enables it to break through sub and screens is really great. However, I don't feel this is enough to make it too strong for UU, and should stay there. Having said that, I can see it being used a lot more in OU now with players potentially removing substitute from Serperior's movepool, causing Crobat to rise to OU by default through usage.

 

Golbat - Its niche can potentially cause it to rise to UU/OU, but I don't think its HA is too impactful for NU and should stay there unless it rises by usage.

 

Nidoqueen/Nidoking - Definitely too strong to remain in NU, but I don't think it has the stats capable enough of staying in OU - I believe UU is the most suited tier for these two.

 

Lucario - I personally think Inner Focus is the better ability, as it doesn't affect stat drops whereas Justified is very situational. Until more HAs are introduced, I believe this should stay in OU, especially with the (not needed) suspect test.

 

Again, I understand the surprise factor, but without knowing some of the HAs coming out in this patch, it's difficult to give insight unless you're a TC member.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Imperial

[gbwead]

What is the procedure for pokemons gaining new Hidden Abilities? Why is Nidoking and Nidoqueen treated differently from Golbat, Crobat and Watchog? If you want to play it safe, just ban everything to OU without thinking. But if the objective is to evaluate where everything is the most likely to end up, I would do this:

• Nidoking --> OU (just to be safe)
• Nidoqueen --> UU (just to be safe)
• Watchog --> Untiered (no change)
• Crobat --> UU (no change)
• Golbat --> UU (Golbat is not broken in NU, it simply has little chance of staying there long term and I believe it would be best to speed up the tiering process)

I want to insist on Nidoqueen. There is absolutely no way it will be OU by usage imo and the odds that Nidoqueen ends up broken in UU seems so unlikely.

Edited October 16, 2022 by gbwead

[Munya]

And now we have Breloom, another one thats already OU so nothing special is being done with it.

Is there any particular reason you feel that Nidoqueen at least should be UU and not King, or why King should be OU but not UU? The vibe I have currently gotten at least from those that have responded in the TC is that they are leaning towards just dumping them both in OU and letting it move along from there

[Imperial]

10 minutes ago, Munya said:

And now we have Breloom, another one thats already OU so nothing special is being done with it.

Is there any particular reason you feel that Nidoqueen at least should be UU and not King, or why King should be OU but not UU? The vibe I have currently gotten at least from those that have responded in the TC is that they are leaning towards just dumping them both in OU and letting it move along from there

For me I think both should be in OU temporarily but either both should be in OU or UU, if you have a look at their base stats they're quite similar (you could argue that Nidoking is slightly more problematic)

 

 

Currently @SweeTforU has already been using Nidoking in today's OU torunament, so he would probably be the best placed to decide, but generally I think we need more people to play both, Nidoking and Nidoqueen to get a good idea. Obviously the former is better so let's see if players get outside their comfort zone and the latter is used as well.

[EmilioGarras]

Isn't it better to just freeze lower tiers tournaments and just move everything to OU until we know exactly what should stay on lower tiers and reorganize the tiers with the new pokemon with hidden abilities? Some pokemon more likely will get a huge boost with his HA. 

[gbwead]

I just can't see anyone playing an offensive Sheer Force Nidoqueen in OU. Nidoking outclasses Nidoqueen completly offensively. It will imo never be OU by usage and, even if it ends up broken in UU, it will need to be tested at some point, might as well test it now.

Edited October 16, 2022 by gbwead

[Munya]

Unless we straight up reset the tiers I do not see the need to halt tournaments, nor do I have the power to do so anyway.

[Imperial]

3 minutes ago, Munya said:

Unless we straight up reset the tiers I do not see the need to halt tournaments, nor do I have the power to do so anyway.

I find it funny that Breloom's swarm happened in the middle of an OU tournament.

[Munya]

2 minutes ago, Imperial said:

I find it funny that Breloom's swarm happened in the middle of an OU tournament.

Okay that would potentially be a reason but unfortunately that's going to be a reality of how these things drop. At least nothing that is already being used will be banned in the middle of a tournament since it complex bans the HA and not the mon as a whole.

[RysPicz]

3 minutes ago, Imperial said:

I find it funny that Breloom's swarm happened in the middle of an OU tournament.

@SweeTforU who used it in semis already few minutes after it was released, found it even funnier