Hidden Ability Placement Discussion Thread

[Luke]

20 hours ago, Munya said:

Crawdaunt - UU

Quagsire - UU

I have no problems with any of the current placements except the ones above, I personally think Crawdaunt may be too strong for UU. And I did in fact vote for it to be OU. And potentially in the future let it drop if  the usage in OU was low & we had more answers added. However this didn't happen, and I think we should proceed with extreme caution of just how strong it can be. I wont link calcs because it will be covering ground which has already been covered, you can see them above this post. 

 

Quagsire, I voted for UU initially but have reconsidered and have opted to change my vote for it to be in NU. (And I believe this has caused for it to go to NU now)

Edited October 21, 2022 by Luke

[Munya]

There has been discussion within TC recently of procedure, specifically how ties are handled and I am curious for some outside opinions on this as well.  Normally, under normal circumstances for normal bans etc.  A tie would result in a pokemon staying where it was.  With these HA mons I have been using the lowest voted tier in the event of a tie. There have been some dissenting opinions on this that think these mons should be in the highest voted tier. 

 

 

What does this mean?  It means in the current environment, Sableye would be UU, Quagsire would still be UU, and Crawdaunt would be OU.

[gbwead]

36 minutes ago, Munya said:

There has been discussion within TC recently of procedure, specifically how ties are handled and I am curious for some outside opinions on this as well.  Normally, under normal circumstances for normal bans etc.  A tie would result in a pokemon staying where it was.  With these HA mons I have been using the lowest voted tier in the event of a tie. There have been some dissenting opinions on this that think these mons should be in the highest voted tier. 

 

 

What does this mean?  It means in the current environment, Sableye would be UU, Quagsire would still be UU, and Crawdaunt would be OU.

You won't get ties if you have an odd number of TC members.

[Munya]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

You won't get ties if you have an odd number of TC members.

We still could, to not be a tie under current rules requires 2 more votes than the second option so that one theoretical vote wouldn't change the outcome.  So in a scenario of 6 members you need 4v2, but in a scenario of 7 members you would need 5v2 as 4v3 would not meet the requirement, which would be even more difficult to accomplish.

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, Munya said:

We still could, to not be a tie under current rules requires 2 more votes than the second option so that one theoretical vote wouldn't change the outcome.  So in a scenario of 6 members you need 4v2, but in a scenario of 7 members you would need 5v2 as 4v3 would not meet the requirement, which would be even more difficult to accomplish.

Remove the clause that creates more ties, I guess.

[razimove]

53 minutes ago, Munya said:

There has been discussion within TC recently of procedure, specifically how ties are handled and I am curious for some outside opinions on this as well.  Normally, under normal circumstances for normal bans etc.  A tie would result in a pokemon staying where it was.  With these HA mons I have been using the lowest voted tier in the event of a tie. There have been some dissenting opinions on this that think these mons should be in the highest voted tier. 

 

 

What does this mean?  It means in the current environment, Sableye would be UU, Quagsire would still be UU, and Crawdaunt would be OU.

Regarding ties, in case it becomes a tie, why not organize a community voting? 

About procedure, I believe it's best for us to do what Orange refered in some other thread, about them being manual changes instead of usage changes currently until the meta settles with the new HAs, something to consider would be adding a tier between UU and NU, which we probably would have enough to fill it with? Although I know that is likely not a possibility, but would also solve a lot of those ties I guess.

[Thenavarro]

30 minutes ago, razimove said:

por qué no organizar una votación comunitaria? 

Imo would be terrible this since you can form an alliance to vote for x thing, the best option would be that the tc will select about 3 or 5 external players with knowledge of the pvp to perform the tiebreaker

[EmilioGarras]

Sharpedo Speed Boost is gonna be juicy, my guess is it should be UU

[suigin]

Definitely UU for Sharpedo. Always gets banned from the tier below it.

[Munya]

Already beaten to posting, but yeah, Sharpedo HA has been released.

[TohnR]

13 hours ago, razimove said:

Regarding ties, in case it becomes a tie, why not organize a community voting? 

I think this thread was created specifically so that the community could voice their opinion and so far they have been listenned to as the only issue that remains discussed is Crawdaunt. I agree with all of what Luke said 😄 I know that eventually TC will place Crawdaunt in OU anyway so I'll try to test it while it's still here but I think it's too early 
 
And Sharpedo should be placed in UU even if it faces strong competition there with Crawdaunt & Feral, but it has a unique trait that makes it viable with this HA

Edited October 22, 2022 by TohnR

[Munya]

6 hours ago, Munya said:

Already beaten to posting, but yeah, Sharpedo HA has been released.

On top of this Xatu is also released, currently has nothing done with it but that can change if need be.

[suigin]

Considering the fact that a complete shitmon like Espeon rose to OU just from having this ability I think it's safe to say Xatu will replace it (unless MMO keeps it in OU just to spite me). It's better in every way. That said it's not gonna split NU or UU in half I think.

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, suigin said:

Considering the fact that a complete shitmon like Espeon rose to OU just from having this ability I think it's safe to say Xatu will replace it (unless MMO keeps it in OU just to spite me). It's better in every way. That said it's not gonna split NU or UU in half I think.

Isn't baton pass banned in any generation where players have access to both Espeon and Xatu Magic Bounce?

Edited October 22, 2022 by gbwead

[suigin]

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Isn't baton pass in any generation where players have access to both Espeon and Xatu Magic Bounce?

Banned but yeah. Espeon was a key component of Denissssss team which got the whole baton pass ban ball rolling. 

[Axelgor]

I find it hard to believe Sharpedo can be considered UU material, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, Vaccum wave Blaziken, RKs, Poliwrath, Quag, Golbat, Quick attack Ambi, Eviolite Scyther, Mantine, there are tons of ways to deal with it 

[gbwead]

From 01/10/2022 to 17/10/2022: Ditto Usage in OU = 0%

From 17/10/2022 to Today: Ditto Usage in OU = 1.47%

 

20/10/2022: Fixed stat stage copying for Imposter

 

In less than 5 days, despite a significant bug preventing Ditto from being viable for 3 days, Ditto was played in 7000 games (1.47% usage).

If Ditto Imposter was available on the first day of October, this means Ditto would have been played in 30 800 games.

30 800 games represents 6.5% in usage which is way more than the regular cut-off point of 4.36%.

 

Imo, even if Ditto isn't broken in any tier, it will very likely end up OU by usage eventually. For that reason, it would be best imo for Ditto to move up as soon as possible, so that lower tiers do not waste time adapting for a mon that is about to leave.

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by gbwead

[Poufilou]

Do you really "adapt" to ditto anyways ? Also feels like this is the opposite of "don't mind usage because it's biased by player capacity to aquire this mon relatively soon", and I don't see why we should mind usage on something that is probably overhyped and players trying it out cos it's easy comp. 

[caioxlive13]

Gliscor Poison Heal is released. For now ok for the OU. If they add new regenerator pokemons, such as Tangrowth, Amoongus and Slowbro, I think a Regenerator Clausule will be needed (Limiting Poison Heal/Regenerator to 1 per team). We have to remember, we play with a time limit of one hour, so I think the tier would be unplayable without restricting the regenerators, with a lot of game being decided on the tiebreaker, with the regenerator favoring whoever uses it in one of the two criteria (Total sum of % HP.)

[Azphiel]

I think it is outrageous that a hidden ability as strong as Gliscor's Poison Heal gets released at the start of a Shiny OU tournament. It catches everyone off guard and favours the richest players who are able to immediately get a competitive Poison Heal Gliscor to get a huge advantage for the rest of the tournament as no one is supposed to be prepared to face it.

Can something be done for the timing of the releases, like releasing "weaker" hidden abilities during official tournaments?

[RysPicz]

11 minutes ago, Azphiel said:

I think it is outrageous that a hidden ability as strong as Gliscor's Poison Heal gets released at the start of a Shiny OU tournament. It catches everyone off guard and favours the richest players who are able to immediately get a competitive Poison Heal Gliscor to get a huge advantage for the rest of the tournament as no one is supposed to be prepared to face it.

Can something be done for the timing of the releases, like releasing "weaker" hidden abilities during official tournaments?

+1. This isn't the first time thing like this happens, earlier we had an OU tour during which a HA Breloom dropped which completely sucked (probably not for Sweet though lol)

[Havsha]

I dunno, we've been asking for HAs for years now, Id rather a few tours get thrown into chaos than postpone ha releases. Im not about to look at a gift horse in the mouth

[Shadow]

Gligar should be going to UU at least, the fact it can't be poisoned allows it to deal with many stall variants in the UU tier

[Munya]

2 hours ago, Azphiel said:

I think it is outrageous that a hidden ability as strong as Gliscor's Poison Heal gets released at the start of a Shiny OU tournament. It catches everyone off guard and favours the richest players who are able to immediately get a competitive Poison Heal Gliscor to get a huge advantage for the rest of the tournament as no one is supposed to be prepared to face it.

Can something be done for the timing of the releases, like releasing "weaker" hidden abilities during official tournaments?

They're random and tournaments are setup way ahead of time, I don't know if this is something we can really solve.

[TohnR]

2 hours ago, Azphiel said:

Can something be done for the timing of the releases, like releasing "weaker" hidden abilities during official tournaments?

This is exactly why I suggested that shiny tournaments would be postponed to after HAs release is over with.
You can't expect from hosts/devs to adapt their "random" swarm spawns to tours and such, so the only option is to adapt tours to the situation
You had an unfair disadvantage in your shiny finals against SweeT because he had access to HAs released that same day and during the tournament.
Plenty of people tell me "It's just a tour, it's temporary, whatever" but I understand being frustrated if I were in your shoes ngl

About the recent changes, I think Sharpedo / Gligar / Xatu should at least be placed in UU.
No idea about OU but Xatu seems to be a good replacement for Espeon there so it seems fair to start it in OU

Edited October 22, 2022 by TohnR