I have received concern about things getting lost in the October thread so here's one specifically for HA discussion, if anything else ends up needing be discussed.  The same rules of normal discussion threads apply.

 

Current New HA releases and their placement(All can still be discussed):

 

Breloom - OU

Empoleon - OU

Espeon - OU

Garchomp - OU

Gliscor - OU

Infernape - OU

Jolteon - OU

Lucario - OU/BL

Magnezone - OU

Nidoking - OU

Serperior - OU

Staraptor - OU

Venusaur  - OU

Xatu - OU

 

Arcanine - UU

Blastoise - UU

Crawdaunt - UU

Crobat - UU

Feraligatr - UU

Nidoqueen - UU

Roserade - UU/BL

Swampert - UU

Umbreon - UU

Vaporeon - UU

 

Aggron - NU/Untiered

Clefable - NU

Charizard - NU

Cincinno - NU/Untiered
Ditto - NU/Untiered

Emboar - NU/Untiered

Flareon - NU/Untiered

Gallade - NU

Gardevoir - NU

Glaceon - NU/Untiered

Gligar - NU

Golbat - NU

Leafeon - NU/Untiered

Luxray - NU/Untiered

Magneton(still relevant right?) - NU

Mantine - NU

Meganium - NU/Untiered

Musharna - NU/Untiered 

Persian - NU/Untiered

Pidgeot - PU, I mean NU/Untiered

Pikachu - NU/Untiered

Pinsir - NU/Untiered

Quagsire - NU

Qwilfish - NU/Untiered

Raichu - NU/Untiered

Rapidash - NU/Untiered

Sableye - NU/Untiered

Samurott - NU/Untiered

Sceptile - NU

Sharpedo - NU/Untiered

Torterra - NU/Untiered
Typhlosion - NU

Watchog - NU/Untiered

Wigglytuff - NU/Untiered

 

 

Currently up for discussion/being voted on:

Crawdaunt for OU.

Calcs:
CB Crawdaunt two shots everything not named Bulky Salamence or Elo Orb Milotic and if it gets a Crunch def drop it's over anyways.

Yup, Crawdaunt must be OU for the moment. 

Sableye it's fine to NU however i'm fearing that players use Sableye on Untiered tours to stall. For security, place it on NU. 

 

About Crawdaunt, if wants to rise better raise Feraligatr too because they do the same role on UU and both become too broken.

Votes are in, they tied 3-3 OU-UU, normally this dictates that I don't touch the pokemon, but since it was NU/Untiered previously, it means it is being placed in UU as it is the lowest voted upon tied tier.

 

So, Crawdaunt is going UU for now.

41 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Sableye it's fine to NU however i'm fearing that players use Sableye on Untiered tours to stall. For security, place it on NU. 

 

About Crawdaunt, if wants to rise better raise Feraligatr too because they do the same role on UU and both become too broken.

Is stall a bad playstyle for tours?

10 minutes ago, Munya said:

So, Crawdaunt is going UU for now.

Excuse me?!?

You are excused, please step outside next time.

it has been marked as suspect, there are some strong opinions that it should be OU, the placement can still be changed if need be, that is just where the votes are for now.

UU being damaged for 297362936269 time

4 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Sableye it's fine to NU however i'm fearing that players use Sableye on Untiered tours to stall. For security, place it on NU. 

 

You don't understand that for the Tier Council, Untiered isn't a tier, and there is no movements between UT and NU other than every other month's usage check
It only exists to help clarify because back in the day the NU pokedex was a mess with hundreds of Pokemon
 

4 hours ago, xJoseee said:

Is stall a bad playstyle for tours?

What Caio meant is that Stall becomes broken with Prank Sableye in Untiered, which is irrelevant because it isn't a proper tier.

About the main point of this thread, I think all decisions were overall good.
I would have placed Crawdaunt in OU mostly to give time to the meta to evolve before it drops in UU, because I expect it to drop at one point but I also expect a lot of mons to drop from OU given the amount of new mons available.
I would have placed Quagsire in NU because I don't think it will raise to UU by usage when the meta is stabilized, and it is overall a bad thing for NU to lose it but it's just an opinion I guess. I'm not gonna fight for that. 
About Magneton yes it is relevant and I like that it is monitored as a whole mon by itself, I believe it has a lot of potential in UU but I have yet to prove it. Shouldn't be an issue to keep it in NU for now

Edit : Pinsir NU/Untiered Moxie doesn't really change much and it loses a better ability (Mold Breaker for Earthquake against Rotom) by acquiring it

Edited October 21, 20222 yr by TohnR

32 minutes ago, TohnR said:

You don't understand that for the Tier Council, Untiered isn't a tier, and there is no movements between UT and NU other than every other month's usage check
It only exists to help clarify because back in the day the NU pokedex was a mess with hundreds of Pokemon

Maybe he can found a niche on NU, and use prankster WoW against some Physical mons, like Steelix , Ambipon(Even having immunity against their Dual Stab(Quick Attack and Fake Out))and Escavalier, and prevent leftovers recovery with Burn on mons more bulky. Unfortunately, one of the main physical offense of tier, Blaziken, cannot get burned by WoW. 

 

 

Better move Sableye to UU. I don't think it's broken for Never Used(Maybe for Untiered, because of that, on the unofficial formats thread, Sableye with Prankster is banned on UT for now, until its impact is evaluated). But Sableye should find a niche in UU. Toxic + Taunt will be very annoying against teams that are not pure stall but are very tanky, which is very common in UU. WoW can be used in an emergency against Feraligatr +1, if it's not one of the Jet sets (DD + Jet and SD + Jet), but I doubt they'll use them for now since there are other pokes with it that end up being strong, like Crawdaunt

my dude changes is mind every couple of hours. I don't see a need for sableye to jump if not by usage itself, it fills a really cool niche, but it's nothing that big. I'm struggling to understand what made you guys decide on crawdaunt not being OU or UUBL for now, thing is a powerhouse even without knock off buffed, it's a staple in BDSP OU metagame, and before people say it's due to knock off, people usually spam tangrowth itemless to help deal with this paired with stuff like clefable etc, still a staple.

Edited October 21, 20222 yr by razimove

Crawdaunt is too broken at UU imo

+1 OU

Pinsir was released like an hour prior to this post, seeking input on it.

Pinsir can remain NU/Untiered imo.

only thing I can see Pinsir being used now is like krookodile but on NU, that means just choice scarf and gain momentum/speed control, only difference is that Pinsir can use swords dance, but speed isn't that good either. 

Base stats aren't that close to being a threat in UU, so agree with gbwead, should remain in NU. 

I think moving Quagsire to UU is unnecessary. First of all, it's not broken in NU. It didn't really even improve all that much in NU - sure, there's a couple of Pokemon that kind of liked having Swords Dance buffs against Quagsire and now would be struggling a little bit (like Ninjask and Scyther) but most physical sweepers weren't even using Swords Dance to get through Quagsire in the first place. Whether Quagsire gets UU or OU usage at this point is just speculation. It definitely could but we don't know how the metagame is going to look in UU when the dust settles whether Quagsire's Unaware is really even needed in the tier. I would drop it to NU but then keep an eye if it starts to pick up any play in higher tiers. But it is definitely not Defensive Ubers in NU.

 

Crawdaunt to me seems to belong to OU. It is already projected to be a solid wallbreaker in OU environment but in UU it can also serve as a very legitimate Dragon Dance/Swords Dance sweeper. Crawdaunt's 4 MSS is far more noticable in OU but in UU (besides Toxicroak) can achieve a ridiculous amount of work with just Water/Dark coverage. I feel like it invalidates defensive play in UU very unfairly but also in UU environment it has at least decent matchup against offensive teams whereas in OU its incredible wallbreaking power would be at least challenged by a negative matchup against hyper offensive teams.

Quagsire to NU and unban Electrode, because Infiltrator Golbat + Unaware Quagsire are huge tools against Screen HO. 

Wow, I had completly forgotten that Electrode was such an Uber threat that it had to get quickbanned from NU. Good thing Infiltrator Golbat that is about to move up to UU/OU is there to keep it in check now...

Im all for re-evaluating bans especially during a time of manual movements but id also be concerned with overwhelming the tiers at a time when so much is being evaluated.

 

Aggron dropped and was deemed insignificant enough to stay where it is.

6 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

I think moving Quagsire to UU is unnecessary. First of all, it's not broken in NU. It didn't really even improve all that much in NU - sure, there's a couple of Pokemon that kind of liked having Swords Dance buffs against Quagsire and now would be struggling a little bit (like Ninjask and Scyther) but most physical sweepers weren't even using Swords Dance to get through Quagsire in the first place. Whether Quagsire gets UU or OU usage at this point is just speculation. It definitely could but we don't know how the metagame is going to look in UU when the dust settles whether Quagsire's Unaware is really even needed in the tier. I would drop it to NU but then keep an eye if it starts to pick up any play in higher tiers. But it is definitely not Defensive Ubers in NU.

 

Crawdaunt to me seems to belong to OU. It is already projected to be a solid wallbreaker in OU environment but in UU it can also serve as a very legitimate Dragon Dance/Swords Dance sweeper. Crawdaunt's 4 MSS is far more noticable in OU but in UU (besides Toxicroak) can achieve a ridiculous amount of work with just Water/Dark coverage. I feel like it invalidates defensive play in UU very unfairly but also in UU environment it has at least decent matchup against offensive teams whereas in OU its incredible wallbreaking power would be at least challenged by a negative matchup against hyper offensive teams.

Maybe clarify something: All mons on this list are moved up manually. They aren't BL. If on following tiershifts they're under 4,36% Cutoff they will be allowed to drop.

For now, those manual tiershift is to place HA on tiers just to be safe, because it can be OP in tier below(For example, Staraptor OU) or their raise soon or later will happen(Quag UU). Need to reminder, probablly next month(November) we most likely will not have rises/drops except those manually rises due to new additions.

 

Edited October 21, 20222 yr by caioxlive13

Pinsir will be left in NU/Untiered.

Here is what i think about Crawdaunt: (u can guess how i feel about it being it in UU)

 

Spoiler

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 125-148 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 101-120 (50 - 59.4%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mystic Water Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 114-136 (56.4 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 138-164 (58.2 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 122-146 (51.4 - 61.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keep in mind Vapo is forced to Protect here but cant risk a SD. A scary 50/50

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 114-135 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 109-130 (50.4 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 87-103 (55 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 99-117 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Can only come once

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 133-156 (84.1 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 70-83 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- 84.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

i would prefer aerial Ace over CC to not get a -def/spdef drop

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 120-143 (57.9 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Now we go over the Offense:

After a SD:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 148-177 (100.6 - 120.4%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 156-185 (115.5 - 137%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 125-148 (89.2 - 105.7%) 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 112-133 (80 - 95%) 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Durant: 114-135 (85.7 - 101.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 156-185 (100.6 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Machamp: 146-174 (88.4 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

 

Poliwrath both handles Fera and Craw which makes it the #1 goat

l think CB Crawdaunt for example, would be kinda similar like CB Darm or CB reckless Staraptor. lf u can predict well, u get a kill but unlike UU, OU have more punishers with rocky helmet.

And unlike Darm and Staraptor, Crawdaunt`s speed backfires him alot. So it can be managed

 

Edited October 21, 20222 yr by PoseidonWrath

Quagsire has been dropped down to NU after reconsideration.