July-2023 Movement Discussion

[hernjet]

add uxie, mesprit and azelf; they are not that strong and very balanced.

[Ziiiiio]

From a playability point of view, I don't like both PP nerf and Ban Gallade. But don't forget that this is a competitive game, delete some parts in game is inevitable. 

 

 

[caioxlive13]

12 hours ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

You talk as if Slowbro regen is really broken, or as if he could do something against Night Slash or Leaf Blade Gallade

If someone manaeges to fit it in a defensive regen core with Amongus, it will be busted on meta. Also, it's some players asking him as a solution to gallade even if i doubt that he will help. 

 

Also now we will see more often Gliscor with Guss on meta. TC has been warned that banning gallade would cause that, but they decide to ban gallade instead of directly drop a nerf on it so it wouldn't go away from meta.

Edited June 27, 2023 by caioxlive13

[BaliAds]

24 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

If someone manaeges to fit it in a defensive regen core with Amongus, it will be busted on meta. Also, it's some players asking him as a solution to gallade even if i doubt that he will help. 

 

Also now we will see more often Gliscor with Guss on meta. TC has been warned that banning gallade would cause that, but they decide to ban gallade instead of directly drop a nerf on it so it wouldn't go away from meta.

As far as I'm aware a pokemon has to go into Ubers before it is nerfed, or at least this was the policy that has been followed in previous instances when Garchomp went uber then swords dance was removed, when Hydreigon went uber then Draco Meteor was removed and same with Wobbuffet when it went uber then shadow tag was nerfed iirc.

 

Have patience and see what happens with Gallade, neither the TC or the staff handling the competitive scene want anything in Ubers and will make a change when appropriate.

[gbwead]

On 6/25/2023 at 3:27 PM, Munya said:

I'll outsource the writeup to you, I'm of the opinion its been banned long enough to warrant a test at the very least as well.

I just want to make sure. If I make a thread, it will get tested in NU, correct? I don't want to make one for no reason.

edit: and yes, it was banned in 2018 and never got retested

Edited June 27, 2023 by gbwead

[CaptnBaklava]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

If someone manaeges to fit it in a defensive regen core with Amongus, it will be busted on meta. Also, it's some players asking him as a solution to gallade even if i doubt that he will help. 

 

Also now we will see more often Gliscor with Guss on meta. TC has been warned that banning gallade would cause that, but they decide to ban gallade instead of directly drop a nerf on it so it wouldn't go away from meta.

Quiver Dance Volcarona beats all the mons you listed. 

[pachima]

16 hours ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

You talk as if Slowbro regen is really broken, or as if he could do something against Night Slash or Leaf Blade Gallade

Slowbro regen would completely murder the tier lmao.

People have absolutely no idea how absolutely broken slowbro regen is.

[Ziiiiio]

Regen core is a good core, And it has a lot of flexibility to build a stall or balance team, so many players choose to play it in tours Jan. The watching experience was extremly poor if mirror match occur. 

 

You can still find thousands of ways to beat them, Gallade was easiest way.

[GreenCatKid]

IMHO I would Nerf Sharpness from a +50% boost to a +20% boost, kinda similar to an iron fist boost

Gallade can still be a strong and effective wall breaker but is easier to deal with and doesn't always 2HKO everything in the tier

[Luke]

4 hours ago, pachima said:

Slowbro regen would completely murder the tier lmao.

People have absolutely no idea how absolutely broken slowbro regen is.

Okay, how about you provide points and argue for them then? I am not disagreeing or agreeing with you I just think it's quite silly to say such a statement and not try and educate people if it's truly what you believe.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Luke

[Munya]

8 hours ago, gbwead said:

I just want to make sure. If I make a thread, it will get tested in NU, correct? I don't want to make one for no reason.

edit: and yes, it was banned in 2018 and never got retested

Sorry was waiting on confirming the want to test it again amongst TC.  DM me the write up - I'll pass it by TC so they can suggest any potential revisions/review if need be(usually about a daylong process), if there are any I'll let you know if not I'll give the go-ahead to post it.

[Imperial]

Lucario in UU when

[RysPicz]

21 minutes ago, Imperial said:

Lucario in UU when

Already happened and it was an absolute disaster. Please no

[caioxlive13]

11 hours ago, BaliAds said:

As far as I'm aware a pokemon has to go into Ubers before it is nerfed, or at least this was the policy

 

not exactly. Hydreigon was not in ubers when it had Draco Meteor. They removed it directly from their learnset without banning.

[gbwead]

Gallade is not banned yet and honestly I would be surprised if it remains uber for more than a few days.

[gbwead]

6 hours ago, Munya said:

Sorry was waiting on confirming the want to test it again amongst TC.  DM me the write up - I'll pass it by TC so they can suggest any potential revisions/review if need be(usually about a daylong process), if there are any I'll let you know if not I'll give the go-ahead to post it.

I haven't played NU ever since Gallade moved up to OU, so I feel my write-up lacks content and is missing an up-to-date perspective. I'm posting it here hoping NU players or TC can complete the write-up if deemed necessary.

 

Quote

 

 

 

Venomoth was banned on July 29, 2018. At the time, the combination of Quiver Dance + Sleep Powder/Disable + Tinted Lens coverage move(s) made Venomoth nearly impossible to deal with. 

 

A lot has changed since 2018:

• We now have team preview.
• We now have access to new pokemon in NU (Alakazam, Azumarill, Blaziken, Cloyster, Galvantula, Gigalith, Mantine, Quagsire, Scrafty, Slowbro, Typhlosion, Venusaur and Wobbuffet).
• We now have access to new items like Assault Vest and Eviolite.
• We now have access to new abilities like Vital Spirit, Imposter, Unaware, Infiltrator, etc.

The Tier Council believes Venomoth remains a big threat, but hopes NU now has the required tools to handle this menace and the metagame can adapt to its presence. For this reason, the prior ban will be reversed, Venomoth will drop to NU and a suspect test period will be initiated as of July 1^st, 2023. 

 

Throughout the suspect test period, please use this thread to share your thoughts regarding Venomoth in NU. Your input on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by gbwead

[Tawla]

I think venomoth is fine in NU and worth a test

[smadagos]

I'm rly afraid by venomoth beeing NU. The only other quiver dance user that i know in NU is lilligant. It's pretty strong but it has big weaknesses. 
1) lilli takes toxik
2) lilli has not usefull abilities
3) lilli has terrible coverage

Venomoth got nothing of these weaknesses but let's see in game 
 

 

[Ziiiiio]

20小时前，Imperial 说：

Lucario in UU when

also Haxorus and torkoal plz

 

Venus is NU and Exeggutor is even worse because their boss are suffering in OU

[BeluMEX]

I consider the proposed changes to be an aberration for the NU level. Let me explain, and for this, I will only give my opinion since writing calculations and objective matters will only make the message more likely to be ignored than the one I will write below.

 

1) Venomoth (I know this is a proof or idea) is a Pokémon that is too strong for the tier. It's already challenging enough dealing with a Venusaur, for which probably 99% of players will have to carry a Careful Golbat for control. On top of that, if you have a Pokémon with Psyshock you make it disappear.

 

2) With the presence of Azumarill and Scrafty in the tier (I'll repeat it), the tier has already reached a point where teams consisting of 6 walls have become the easiest to use. They easily cover this combination, allowing you to save yourself from thinking or playing with skill. How do I argue this point? Well, just look at the last 2 or 3 NU seasonals. Players who are not very experienced in the tier simply copy a team of 6 walls and win without any problem (1000 IQ).

 

3) I don't know what the TC are smoking with these changes (Gligar, Venusaur, mismagius, xatu, gigalith, clefable|tentacruel, and others). Frankly, it seems like they don't play the tier enough. When you find yourself in a situation where you have to bring a specific Pokémon for each battle, it means the level has stagnated. There's no room left to play with creativity. We have already seen that with the previous aberrations., several Pokémon like Houndoom, Sharpedo, Tangrowth, Rhydon, Miltank, Samurott, Golurk, Sableye, Slowking, Slowbro, Charizard, Torterra, etc., have become completely useless or extremely difficult to play in NU.

 

And I'm not spreading hatred towards the TC. What I'm essentially suggesting is that they shouldn't turn NU into the new OU or UU, where you see the same 6-12 Pokémon in every battle just because they are the easiest or most overpowered to use.

 

PD: The new changes just are inviting us to build 6 different walls for play ^^

[Merckis]

TC should document their reasoning more, and use publicly available core principles & data that anyone can check. The Gallade ban seems very arbitrary and iniquitous.

 

Quote

1 Offensive Uber

A Pokémon that in common battle conditions, is capable of sweeping or wall breaking through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

This is too vague, and I would argue Gallade doesn't fit this definition ("with little effort") at all.

Based on data many other mons should be banned before Gallade.

 

Like how the **** is Gliscor not ruled a Defensive Uber then?! In any given game it will heal over 3 times its lifepool. We have ON VIDEO a high ranked dude, tanking Rotom Wash Hydro pump with Sp Def Gliscor and easily taking it out with toxic. Sp Def Gliscor can even tank Ice Beam from many mons. The recovery is absolutely insane and it's immune to status with an absolutely stellar stat spread (speed, defense, good atk, 45 sp atk very low so other stats are good). Like Gliscor is not a straight up 510 total pokemon if you calculate properly taking into account sp atk & benefits from poison heal.

 

It can have so many movesets (Taunt? Fling? Facade? Sword Dance? EQ? Acrobatics? Toxic? Protect? Sp Def? Def? Stone Edge? Protect?)

Gallade has like 1 moveset that you can easily guess (outspeeds you or not)

On the other hand we have Gallade that must guess on every attack, cannot sweep anything without scarf (and with scarf many things won't be OHKO), is still vulnerable to priority moves and suffers a lot from hazard.

So we have an offensive threat which cannot afford to make a mistake and requires a specific scenario to sweep anything, and on the other hand we have Gliscor which by definition tanks anything with little effort, can afford to make mistakes.

 

Overall banning Gallade is ok, tier is still reasonably healthy, but really feels it's coming out of nowhere. Some changes are based on pure data (Venusaur, Xatu to NU) and are obviously wrong. Some changes like Gallade are not based on data and are contentious as well. The thread discussing Gallade wasn't enough, we need actual data & reasoning from TC to at least understand the philosophy. Like for Vaporeon we got "We voted this way, deal with it, see you next time"

I have enough money in game to update teams etc. but I feel bad for newer players investing in a mon like Gallade or Zoroark only for it to get a tier change with weak explanations

Like I understand sticking to the data strictly and moving Zoroark to UU, but it was perfectly fine in NU. So try to be coherent instead of using this mix & match of systematical approach & arbitrary approach.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Merckis

[gbwead]

29 minutes ago, Merckis said:

TC should document their reasoning more, and use publicly available core principles & data that anyone can check. The Gallade ban seems very arbitrary and iniquitous.

 

This is too vague, and I would argue Gallade doesn't fit this definition ("with little effort") at all.

Based on data many other mons should be banned before Gallade.

 

Like how the **** is Gliscor not ruled a Defensive Uber then?! In any given game it will heal over 3 times its lifepool. We have ON VIDEO a high ranked dude, tanking Rotom Wash Hydro pump with Sp Def Gliscor and easily taking it out with toxic. Sp Def Gliscor can even tank Ice Beam from many mons. The recovery is absolutely insane and it's immune to status with an absolutely stellar stat spread (speed, defense, good atk, 45 sp atk very low so other stats are good). Like Gliscor is not a straight up 510 total pokemon if you calculate properly taking into account sp atk & benefits from poison heal.

 

It can have so many movesets (Taunt? Fling? Facade? Sword Dance? EQ? Acrobatics? Toxic? Protect? Sp Def? Def? Stone Edge? Protect?)

Gallade has like 1 moveset that you can easily guess (outspeeds you or not)

On the other hand we have Gallade that must guess on every attack, cannot sweep anything without scarf (and with scarf many things won't be OHKO), is still vulnerable to priority moves and suffers a lot from hazard.

So we have an offensive threat which cannot afford to make a mistake and requires a specific scenario to sweep anything, and on the other hand we have Gliscor which by definition tanks anything with little effort, can afford to make mistakes.

 

Overall banning Gallade is ok, tier is still reasonably healthy, but really feels it's coming out of nowhere. Some changes are based on pure data (Venusaur, Xatu to NU) and are obviously wrong. Some changes like Gallade are not based on data and are contentious as well. The thread discussing Gallade wasn't enough, we need actual data & reasoning from TC to at least understand the philosophy. Like for Vaporeon we got "We voted this way, deal with it, see you next time"

I have enough money in game to update teams etc. but I feel bad for newer players investing in a mon like Gallade or Zoroark only for it to get a tier change with weak explanations

Like I understand sticking to the data strictly and moving Zoroark to UU, but it was perfectly fine in NU. So try to be coherent instead of using this mix & match of systematical approach & arbitrary approach.

Pokemon get moved automatically from one tier to another based on usage. That's where the name Over Used, Under Used and Never Used come from. As unfortunate as it may be for Zoroark to move up to UU, it's still a good thing overall because without usage movements we no longer have tiers. Indirectly, by moving up to UU, Zoroark ensures that Never Used still exist and preventing it from moving up would mean the death of Never Used. That's not even a decision in the hands of the Tier Council.

 

As for Gallade, it may or may not fit Offensive Uber Characteristics, but that still has nothing to do with Gliscor as a potential Defensive Uber mon. If you want to argue that Gallade doesn't fit Offensive Uber Characteristics, you should compare Gallade to other offensive mons and show how Gallade is no better than them. Comparing the offensive characteristics of one pokemon to the defensive characteristics of another pokemon serves no purpose. It's not because an offensive pokemon gets banned that we should look for retaliation and ask for a defensive pokemon to get banned too. An eye for an eye doesn't work for tiering.

[Zokuru]

2 hours ago, Merckis said:

TC should document their reasoning more, and use publicly available core principles & data that anyone can check. The Gallade ban seems very arbitrary and iniquitous.

 

This is too vague, and I would argue Gallade doesn't fit this definition ("with little effort") at all.

Based on data many other mons should be banned before Gallade.

 

Like how the **** is Gliscor not ruled a Defensive Uber then?! In any given game it will heal over 3 times its lifepool. We have ON VIDEO a high ranked dude, tanking Rotom Wash Hydro pump with Sp Def Gliscor and easily taking it out with toxic. Sp Def Gliscor can even tank Ice Beam from many mons. The recovery is absolutely insane and it's immune to status with an absolutely stellar stat spread (speed, defense, good atk, 45 sp atk very low so other stats are good). Like Gliscor is not a straight up 510 total pokemon if you calculate properly taking into account sp atk & benefits from poison heal.

 

It can have so many movesets (Taunt? Fling? Facade? Sword Dance? EQ? Acrobatics? Toxic? Protect? Sp Def? Def? Stone Edge? Protect?)

Gallade has like 1 moveset that you can easily guess (outspeeds you or not)

On the other hand we have Gallade that must guess on every attack, cannot sweep anything without scarf (and with scarf many things won't be OHKO), is still vulnerable to priority moves and suffers a lot from hazard.

So we have an offensive threat which cannot afford to make a mistake and requires a specific scenario to sweep anything, and on the other hand we have Gliscor which by definition tanks anything with little effort, can afford to make mistakes.

 

Overall banning Gallade is ok, tier is still reasonably healthy, but really feels it's coming out of nowhere. Some changes are based on pure data (Venusaur, Xatu to NU) and are obviously wrong. Some changes like Gallade are not based on data and are contentious as well. The thread discussing Gallade wasn't enough, we need actual data & reasoning from TC to at least understand the philosophy. Like for Vaporeon we got "We voted this way, deal with it, see you next time"

I have enough money in game to update teams etc. but I feel bad for newer players investing in a mon like Gallade or Zoroark only for it to get a tier change with weak explanations

Like I understand sticking to the data strictly and moving Zoroark to UU, but it was perfectly fine in NU. So try to be coherent instead of using this mix & match of systematical approach & arbitrary approach.

Post elo

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

 

As for Gallade, it may or may not fit Offensive Uber Characteristics, but that still has nothing to do with Gliscor as a potential Defensive Uber mon. If you want to argue that Gallade doesn't fit Offensive Uber Characteristics, you should compare Gallade to other offensive mons and show how Gallade is no better than them. 

And what the hell I was doing all this time, comparing Gallade to other wallbreakers and exposing that they share the same weakness and those weakness given the state of our meta could be easily exploited?

[Missit]

8 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

And what the hell I was doing all this time, comparing Gallade to other wallbreakers and exposing that they share the same weakness and those weakness given the state of our meta could be easily exploited?

You didnt expose anything. You just posted the same few arguments for the 10th time without backing it up with any evidence whatsoever. Even after being called out for that you still provided 0 proof for your claims. Just the same few points you bring up all the time...