OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[epicdavenport]

1 hour ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Tbh, idt that suicune is so broken as people talk rn, it's very strong for current metagame, but we can't just do a quickban without testing just because someone said that it's broken, there are some checks as taunt Jellicent, Haze Mantine Tp+Bullet Seed breloom, NP Washtom, Cm raikou,W absorb  Seismitoad, yea, ik, some of these aren't common things in OU, but, in my opinion, suicune is strong af for OU, but not strong enough for a quickban, the impact of suicune in OU metagame isn't a predictable thing 

 

We don't have Raikou and Seismitoad doesn't have water absorb.

[Huargensy]

Just use tapu fini taunt + Nature Madness

[gbwead]

2 hours ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Tbh, idt that suicune is so broken as people talk rn, it's very strong for current metagame, but we can't just do a quickban without testing just because someone said that it's broken, there are some checks as taunt Jellicent, Haze Mantine Tp+Bullet Seed breloom, NP Washtom, Cm raikou,W absorb  Seismitoad, yea, ik, some of these aren't common things in OU, but, in my opinion, suicune is strong af for OU, but not strong enough for a quickban, the impact of suicune in OU metagame isn't a predictable thing 

 

Aside from Jellicent Taunt and Nasty Plot Rotom, nothing that you listed comes even close to being effective vs Suicune.

Haze Mantine will just get pp stalled, unless you play some new set.

Raikou doesn't exists.
Seismitoad Water Absorb doesn't exist.

Breloom Bullet Seed only works if it doesn't get burned by Scald or if Suicune doesn't run Ice Beam.

 

[suigin]

Zapdos should have been the first legendary added into the game.

[drowC]

Spirittomb with Infiltrator and Toxic or Trick. ^^

[Frag]

gtfo just adapt to it, 10 years waiting for a legend

[DoubleJ]

1 hour ago, Frag said:

gtfo just adapt to it, 10 years waiting for a legend

Gallade, broken.

Suicune, just adapt.

 

Classic Frags, you walluguu.

 

[Blu3Breath]

Gyarados (dd)
Breloom (poison heal or bullet seed tech)
Mantine/Tenta/Milotic (haze)
Rotom (nasty plot)
Suicune mirror (roar or cm with hidden power coverage)
Serperior (leaf storm + giga/dpulse)
Blissy/Chansey tanks +6 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 105-124 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 9.3% chance to 3HKO
Spdef Roserade
Spdef Shaymin

Just a few things that should be able to take Suicune on (I'm sure there's a long list but I'm not going through it all). Keep in mind the move pool is quite shallow, and I assume most people are worried about VinCune. A more offensive variant could beat some of these but that would open itself up to being beaten in other ways.

[KeldeoCrowned]

On 8/17/2023 at 6:51 AM, Blu3Breath said:

Gyarados (dd)
Breloom (poison heal or bullet seed tech)
Mantine/Tenta/Milotic (haze)
Rotom (nasty plot)
Suicune mirror (roar or cm with hidden power coverage)
Serperior (leaf storm + giga/dpulse)
Blissy/Chansey tanks +6 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 105-124 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 9.3% chance to 3HKO
Spdef Roserade
Spdef Shaymin

Just a few things that should be able to take Suicune on (I'm sure there's a long list but I'm not going through it all). Keep in mind the move pool is quite shallow, and I assume most people are worried about VinCune. A more offensive variant could beat some of these but that would open itself up to being beaten in other ways.

Unfortunately , gyarados just can do something if it runs power whip and don't get burned by scald
breloom makes sense
Tentacruel just loses in 1v1 if get burned (no recovery)
Blissey and Chansey can't do anything vs cune
Spdef Roserade is a weaker version of amoonguss, it can't even break his sub if and loses to PP stall or ice beam variants
Shaymin isn't available
things as serperior suffer so much because need to waste Leaf Storm PP (4) protect+subs spam can just disable serperior in long games
yea, Cune looks like broken, but as i said before, suspect>>> TC Quickban , maybe in the future with new hidden abilities as Storm Drain Cradily, Water Absorb seismitoad or with new legendaries as Celebi/Raikou it becomes more handeable 

[Imperial]

4 hours ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Unfortunately , gyarados just can do something if it runs power whip and don't get burned by scald
breloom makes sense
Tentacruel just loses in 1v1 if get burned (no recovery)
Blissey and Chansey can't do anything vs cune
Spdef Roserade is a weaker version of amoonguss, it can't even break his sub if and loses to PP stall or ice beam variants
Shaymin isn't available
things as serperior suffer so much because need to waste Leaf Storm PP (4) protect+subs spam can just disable serperior in long games
yea, Cune looks like broken, but as i said before, suspect>>> TC Quickban , maybe in the future with new hidden abilities as Storm Drain Cradily, Water Absorb seismitoad or with new legendaries as Celebi/Raikou it becomes more handeable 

Roserade hits harder than Amoongus and has fairly good sp def bulk especially with AV. Shaymin is available it's just non-existent at the moment because it's BL2 and Serperior and Amoongus have been outclassing it as the grass types in the tier.

 

Anyway it seems pretty obvious that new stuff will be added soon so better to just wait it out.

[KeldeoCrowned]

4 hours ago, Imperial said:

Roserade hits harder than Amoongus and has fairly good sp def bulk especially with AV. Shaymin is available it's just non-existent at the moment because it's BL2 and Serperior and Amoongus have been outclassing it as the grass types in the tier.

 

Anyway it seems pretty obvious that new stuff will be added soon so better to just wait it o

AV rade isn't even considered here tbh, this is a specific Mon, with a specific set who can't even do her work 100% of times, it loses vs 2 atk cune, loses vs cm rest cune if she switches into a cm, and has difficulty to break vincune in 1v1 , it really deserves a suspect lol, the only 100% counter until now is taunt jellicent, until someone start to run 2atk cune w hp grass 

[Imperial]

11 minutes ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

AV rade isn't even considered here tbh, this is a specific Mon, with a specific set who can't even do her work 100% of times, it loses vs 2 atk cune, loses vs cm rest cune if she switches into a cm, and has difficulty to break vincune in 1v1 , it really deserves a suspect lol, the only 100% counter until now is taunt jellicent, until someone start to run 2atk cune w hp grass 

Obviously I don't know what goes on in the background, but they added Raikou and Entei in the Pokedex so I'm pretty sure they'll be introduced fairly soon - Raikou will probably help balance Suicune out in OU. 

 

We'll most likely be seeing more stuff added, and at worst if Suicune is proven to be too broken (I think people will adapt), they'll probably nerf it by removing Calm Mind like they nerfed Garchomp and Hydreigon.

[Blu3Breath]

10 hours ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Unfortunately , gyarados just can do something if it runs power whip and don't get burned by scald Lum or sub
breloom makes sense
Tentacruel just loses in 1v1 if get burned (no recovery) Toxic or knock
Blissey and Chansey can't do anything vs cune You dont care for vincunes scald, tp out and bait the limited uses of it by switching back in.
Spdef Roserade is a weaker version of amoonguss, it can't even break his sub if and loses to PP stall or ice beam variants Then use amoongus, both should beat it
Shaymin isn't available Yes it is, everyone had the chance to get it. Only excuse is if you are really new to the game.
things as serperior suffer so much because need to waste Leaf Storm PP (4) protect+subs spam can just disable serperior in long games Thats why I suggested another move, the cune player can bait out your leaf storms if they play right but thats an aspect of the game.
yea, Cune looks like broken, but as i said before, suspect>>> TC Quickban , maybe in the future with new hidden abilities as Storm Drain Cradily, Water Absorb seismitoad or with new legendaries as Celebi/Raikou it becomes more handeable There are already water absorb mons, just because something is in a lower tier doesn't mean its bad. Meta shifts happen all the time. 

 

[SweeTforU]

real talk yall can run a lapras with dd or smthing and have the easiest set up of your life

[KeldeoCrowned]

37 minutes ago, Blu3Breath said:

 

Yea, how do you plan break cune's substitute with tentacruel
Chansey/Blissey just loses their softboiled PPs, and he can just pp stall them spamming protects subs or cms
Amoonguss can't do anything vs cune 
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 84-102 (20.7 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Everyone HAD the chance to get it, now there are a limited number of Shaymins on the market
Without leaf storm Serperior can't even break suicune substitute if cune gets +2 
Yes, there are lower tier water absorbs and the metagame changes, but when you need to run a specific pokémon who is bad 
in OU just to counter a pokémon, this isn't a healthy metagame shift, this looks like saying "Dracovish is balanced, just run Water Absorb"
or better, let's bring zekrom to OU, just start to run Curse Bulldoze ferrothorn
 

[pachima]

This thread has devolved into a "Whoever can mention the most irrelevant never seen gimmick to deal with Suicune" contest, and the sad (and hilarious) part is that they are serious about it. 

Wait. My bad. Not just to deal with Suicune as a whole, but to try to deal with 1 set of Suicune, mostly because any other way would be impossible and pointless, and how dare a Pokémon preventing any argument at all. 

Same people that claimed Gallade was definitely broken day one are now apemad because we are not giving people time to adapt to Suicune.

Same people that are bringing all sort of random garbage are also the same that went apemad whenever someone mentioned spiritomb or sableye to deal with Gallade in general.

And no, I don't care about Gallade's judgment at all, but it was the last pokemon to be banned to UBER and the way people are so completely blinded by bias is very glaringly obvious here. 

On the bright side, allow me to congratulate you all for coming up with even worse arguments than the infamous: Tyranitar could be NU in gen 3 because of Hitmontop, Truly. I am impressed. It requires a lot of special brainpower to outmeme a 10 year old meme. 

 

Either way, I am gonna join the parade and claim the crown by mentioning this one very viable, or at least as viable as some Pokémon I found mentioned in this thread. The ultimate counter to any Suicune. Here it is folks:
- Bibarel:

- Item: Leftovers
- Ability: Unaware
- Nature: Any ( But +spdef suggested)
- Moves: Rest - Taunt - Scald (To avoid ice beam freezes) - Any

 

2 hours ago, Imperial said:

Obviously I don't know what goes on in the background, but they added Raikou and Entei in the Pokedex so I'm pretty sure they'll be introduced fairly soon - Raikou will probably help balance Suicune out in OU. 

 

We'll most likely be seeing more stuff added, and at worst if Suicune is proven to be too broken (I think people will adapt), they'll probably nerf it by removing Calm Mind like they nerfed Garchomp and Hydreigon.

Now let me reply to probably one of the few people here that are actually trying to bring valid arguments. 

I don't think relying on potential stuff that can come in the future is solid enough to keep a potentially broken Pokémon in the tier. First because we know absolutely knothing about whenever new stuff will come, and second because we also don't know if the new stuff that would come are able to actually hinder Suicune. In other words, it makes no sense to keep a potentially uber Pokémon in OU (If deemed that way) for as long as new stuff are not coming. This will just create an unbalanced metagame that will tryo to unhealthily adapt to something that may or may not just disappear either way. IF Suicune is deemed an issue in the current meta, I'd say get it banned and then re-evaluate it after new stuff comes, IF, that new stuff proves to be solid enough to make Suicune balanced in the future tier. 

 

 

[KeldeoCrowned]

9 minutes ago, pachima said:

This thread has devolved into a "Whoever can mention the most irrelevant never seen gimmick to deal with Suicune" contest, and the sad (and hilarious) part is that they are serious about it. 

Wait. My bad. Not just to deal with Suicune as a whole, but to try to deal with 1 set of Suicune, mostly because any other way would be impossible and pointless, and how dare a Pokémon preventing any argument at all. 

Same people that claimed Gallade was definitely broken day one are now apemad because we are not giving people time to adapt to Suicune.

Same people that are bringing all sort of random garbage are also the same that went apemad whenever someone mentioned spiritomb or sableye to deal with Gallade in general.

And no, I don't care about Gallade's judgment at all, but it was the last pokemon to be banned to UBER and the way people are so completely blinded by bias is very glaringly obvious here. 

On the bright side, allow me to congratulate you all for coming up with even worse arguments than the infamous: Tyranitar could be NU in gen 3 because of Hitmontop, Truly. I am impressed. It requires a lot of special brainpower to outmeme a 10 year old meme. 

 

Either way, I am gonna join the parade and claim the crown by mentioning this one very viable, or at least as viable as some Pokémon I found mentioned in this thread. The ultimate counter to any Suicune. Here it is folks:
- Bibarel:

- Item: Leftovers
- Ability: Unaware
- Nature: Any ( But +spdef suggested)
- Moves: Rest - Taunt - Scald (To avoid ice beam freezes) - Any

 

Now let me reply to probably one of the few people here that are actually trying to bring valid arguments. 

I don't think relying on potential stuff that can come in the future is solid enough to keep a potentially broken Pokémon in the tier. First because we know absolutely knothing about whenever new stuff will come, and second because we also don't know if the new stuff that would come are able to actually hinder Suicune. In other words, it makes no sense to keep a potentially uber Pokémon in OU (If deemed that way) for as long as new stuff are not coming. This will just create an unbalanced metagame that will tryo to unhealthily adapt to something that may or may not just disappear either way. IF Suicune is deemed an issue in the current meta, I'd say get it banned and then re-evaluate it after new stuff comes, IF, that new stuff proves to be solid enough to make Suicune balanced in the future tier. 

 

 

Suicune is Balanced! Just run this

Lanturn @ Leppa Berry  
Ability: Water Absorb  
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe  
Adamant Nature  
- Spark  
- Curse  
- Scald  
- Rest

 

[RysPicz]

3 minutes ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Suicune is Balanced! Just run this

Lanturn @ Leppa Berry  
Ability: Water Absorb  
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe  
Adamant Nature  
- Spark  
- Curse  
- Scald  
- Rest

 

Lanturn does not have it's HA yet.

E:

Since I made a post I guess I'll expand my thoughts eh

It has literally JUST been implemented. Although I do agree that we should be getting the lower-tier legendaries first along with relevant HAs (Magic Guard Zam when), it is what it is. I do not think Suicune is instantly uber, although it surely is insanely centralizing and potent. We barely touched Johto, let's give Suicune and the metagame time to adapt. I expect to see some Gastrodons and Toxicroaks maybe. We have anniversary just around the corner, new things are pouring into the game soon. I would just give it time, it's not even been a week guys, come on.

Edited August 19, 2023 by RysPicz

[pachima]

1 minute ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

Suicune is Balanced! Just run this

Lanturn @ Leppa Berry  
Ability: Water Absorb  
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe  
Adamant Nature  
- Spark  
- Curse  
- Scald  
- Rest

 

Holy crap. You made me realize I actually have a comp adamant lanturn rotting in my PC. 

Time to revive the good stuff.

[KeldeoCrowned]

1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

Lanturn does not have it's HA yet.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[pachima]

1 minute ago, KeldeoCrowned said:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

No problemo. Just run facade.

[AwaXGoku]

11 minutes ago, pachima said:

Now let me reply to probably one of the few people here that are actually trying to bring valid arguments. 

I don't think relying on potential stuff that can come in the future is solid enough to keep a potentially broken Pokémon in the tier. First because we know absolutely knothing about whenever new stuff will come, and second because we also don't know if the new stuff that would come are able to actually hinder Suicune. In other words, it makes no sense to keep a potentially uber Pokémon in OU (If deemed that way) for as long as new stuff are not coming. This will just create an unbalanced metagame that will tryo to unhealthily adapt to something that may or may not just disappear either way. IF Suicune is deemed an issue in the current meta, I'd say get it banned and then re-evaluate it after new stuff comes, IF, that new stuff proves to be solid enough to make Suicune balanced in the future tier. 

This is the real problem ! We waited 6 month between Shaymin and Suicune and I dont see how we can deal with it without dropping other legendaries and/or some broken HA.
If we assume we get legendaries at each "major" event we can potentially at the end the year get 2 new legendaries (with entei + raikou that might probably come without new update).

I dont see which combo of legendaries can come into the game and stop suicune without breaking the tier themselve.

[Imperial]

19 minutes ago, AwaXGoku said:

This is the real problem ! We waited 6 month between Shaymin and Suicune and I dont see how we can deal with it without dropping other legendaries and/or some broken HA.
If we assume we get legendaries at each "major" event we can potentially at the end the year get 2 new legendaries (with entei + raikou that might probably come without new update).

I dont see which combo of legendaries can come into the game and stop suicune without breaking the tier themselve.

I agree and I think there are a few fundamental problems I've witnessed:

• The fact that we have an incomplete meta, meaning that when a legendary comes it either sinks into oblivion (Shaymin) or it becomes too strong for the top tier because we don't have other legends and tools to balance it out. If we get legendaries slowly, it'll take a long time for this 'meta' to be complete, but at the same time, how legendaries are being implemented is not cost-efficient for many competitive players and you'll likely need to spend between 10-20m for perfect comps (I think sweet addressed this issue on another thread)
• The fact that if something is implemented (Sharpness Gallade), a large section of the community complains because it ruins their playstyle (6 wall stall) and teamcores, but when something just as potentially 'broken' drops (Suicune), that same group tells everyone that they're making a fuss and need to adapt
• People claiming that releasing Regenerator Slowbro/Slowking would be healthy for the metagame in its current state because of its 'offensive' pressure of Future Sight and Teleport when we already see how centralising Amoongus is and we don't have the tools to heavily pressure these regen mons
• MMO trying to be niche and implementing gen 8/9 mechanics in what was supposed to be a gen 5 metagame, although making room for many opportunities in the PvP scene, also making the meta completely unpredictable and unstable

Things will definitely smoothen out, but these will probably be the common occurrences. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Imperial

[AwaXGoku]

7 minutes ago, Imperial said:

I agree and I think there are a few fundamental problems I've witnessed:

• The fact that we have an incomplete meta, meaning that when a legendary comes it either sinks into oblivion (Shaymin) or it becomes too strong for the top tier because we don't have other legends and tools to balance it out. If we get legendaries slowly, it'll take a long time for this 'meta' to be complete, but at the same time, how legendaries are being implemented is not cost-efficient for many competitive players and you'll likely need to spend between 10-20m for perfect comps (I think sweet addressed this issue on another thread)
• The fact that if something is implemented (Sharpness Gallade), a large section of the community complains because it ruins their playstyle (6 wall stall) and teamcores, but when something just as potentially 'broken' drops (Suicune), that same group tells everyone that they're making a fuss and need to adapt
• People claiming that releasing Regenerator Slowbro/Slowking would be healthy for the metagame in its current state because of its 'offensive' pressure of Future Sight and Teleport when we already see how centralising Amoongus is and we don't have the tools to heavily pressure these regen mons
• MMO trying to be niche and implementing gen 8/9 mechanics in what was supposed to be a gen 5 metagame, although making room for many opportunities in the PvP scene, also making the meta completely unpredictable and unstable

Things will definitely smoothen out, but these will probably be the common occurrences. 

Since our game will drop a lot of new really powerfull things, i think we should release almost every big things at the same time (all complex ban we previously made like sd chomp, dm hydreigon, outrage bp, knock off buff) and then we will be able to receive strong tool to handle them. Huge offensive tool are being nerfed atm so bringing slowtwin/tangrowth regen is just dumb but if we get more offensive tool to handle them it can become fine to drop them (even with that i still think slowtwin are really not good to add xd).

If we do that yes it will be a huge mess in the tier but at least we arent dropping things 1 by 1 and the metagame will be more able to able some legendaries drop.
But yeah i think we wont ever have a unstable metagme until all legendaries will be available and it will probably take a loooot of time before it happen.

[RysPicz]

Just now, AwaXGoku said:

This is the real problem ! We waited 6 month between Shaymin and Suicune and I dont see how we can deal with it without dropping other legendaries and/or some broken HA.
If we assume we get legendaries at each "major" event we can potentially at the end the year get 2 new legendaries (with entei + raikou that might probably come without new update).

I dont see which combo of legendaries can come into the game and stop suicune without breaking the tier themselve.

We might not need legendaries tbh, just adaptation I guess.

Jellicent with Taunt completely shuts down any Suicune

Toxicroak is an offensive answer

Gastrodon should be able to deal with it as well

CM Reuniclus is capable of winning the CM war thanks to access to Psyshock/ Stored Power

Shedinja kappa

Unaware Clefable

Empoleon

Hazards (especially toxic spikes), encore, trick

 

just some things from the top of my head which currently are in the metagame that can help dealing with it. Although I can't disagree, that the implementation of more HAs (Seismitoad for example) and Legendaries (Celebi is the first one that comes to my mind) would make it much easier to handle.

 

Let's just give it some time, it's not even been a week.