OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[gbwead]

50 minutes ago, kiwi said:

how can u say this when u just posted calcs of it being 2hkod by RESISTED attacks, let's say its as bulky as u say and its hard to revengekill (which it isnt) the same mons that can check it defensively with a 1.4boost will keep doing so with 1.5 so why have it custom changed instead of the way its intended when its clearly not broken

On the special side, Gallade has extremely good bulk and on the physical side Gallade has mediocre bulk (not paper tho). Gallade is therefore not a glass cannon since it's not paper on either side of the spectrum.

 

I posted calcs where Gallade has 0 defensive investments. The fact it gets 2hkod by RESISTED attacks is insanely irrelevant. Think about it for more than 2 seconds. Is anyone going to claim that Volcarona or Starmie are paper because they get 2hkod by Close Combat Lucario, Conkeldur or Mienshao? Is Physically Defensive Skarmory Paper because it gets 2HKO by Spec Draco Meteor Hydreigon? Is Hydreigon Paper because it gets 2hko by Scarf Flare Blizt Darmanitan? Of course not, who the fuck cares. The fact that they can take 1 hit is more than enough. I already pointed out that nearly all physical attacks vs Gallade are either neutral or resisted anyways. The fact that most physical mons do not OHKO Gallade is enough proof that Gallade is not paper. Typing matters.

 

I'm not arguing anything regarding 1.4 vs 1.5 Sharpness. I wasted enough time to talk about this and devs don't care, they will do w.e they want regardless of anything we say. I just completly disagree with the implication that it's okay for Gallade to be buffed because on the other hand, it's paper. Gallade is not glass cannon.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by gbwead

[Frag]

On 11/27/2023 at 8:04 AM, RysPicz said:

I believe there's a reason why this is not being discussed, and my opinion is that people simply gave up. No matter what we discuss, what we disagree with, we end up with changes that we ultimately do not want or never asked for. To put it short- we are wasting our time, trying to argument against a decision which strikes us anyway.

 

 

And ofc then we have caio but that's a totally different can of worms...

This is exactly what happened, months of discussion to reach an agreement, then from nowhere all arguments got ignored and they made an unnecesary custom change, it was just wtf.

 

Wathever, i wont bother making arguments when dev friends have the final word.

 

 

 

Edited January 18 by Frag
deleted coz wasting time

[pachima]

Daily reminder that:

 

Also, this is probably the only pokemon game in existence where a Pokemon was banned out of sheer panic, its nerfed version was completely irrelevant in the tier, people realized it wasn't as broken as they claimed in the offensive side, they buff it, and then the same people now complain that it's bulkier than it seems.

 

No, Gallade isn't paper, but its bulk hasn't changed whatsoever so that's irrelevant.

No, Gallade isn't fast. If you think 80 base speed is fast, either your team is utter garbage, or the meta is completely messed up and favorable to more defensive teams to an incredibly unbalanced degree. 

Yes, this whole conversation about 1.5x or 1.4x is a huge unbelievable meme. You can argue that there is no reason to have a customized 1.4x boost. Fine. You can't argue that a 6.7% damage boost turns a pokemon from an uncounterable Uber offensive pokemon to a random garbage.

 

Also, why in hell are we discussing a 5% usage Pokemon that has less bulk, worse typing, worse spamming capability and less power when compared to Hydreigon, who is in the tier completely melting everything that tries to come in? 

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, pachima said:

Also, this is probably the only pokemon game in existence where a Pokemon was banned out of sheer panic, its nerfed version was completely irrelevant in the tier, people realized it wasn't as broken as they claimed in the offensive side, they buff it, and then the same people now complain that it's bulkier than it seems.

"the same people no complain that it's bulkier than it seems" 

I never pushed for a Gallade ban or against it. I only pushed against constantly changing shit up with custom bullshit. Considering I am the only one refusing the unfounded argument that Gallade has no bulk, you can't say "the same people" because the only references me and I have not pushed for a ban.

 

 

Also, nerfed Gallade was not irrelevant in OU because if it was it would have felt to UU. And even if Gallade did become irrelevant in OU, who the fuck cares? There is no requirement for Gallade to be relevant anywhere. Should we make custom changes to Caterpie to ensure it becomes relevant in OU? No. Gallade doesn't require special treatment.

 

And the reason we are discussing Gallade is because everyone knows what is going on here:

1. Devs fucked up by adding Sharpness
2. Devs nerfed Sharpness
3. Devs don't want Sharpness to stay nerfed, so they buff it slowly but surely until it goes back to it's original format

There is clearly a hidden agenda that we are not told because devs would no go through so much trouble just to buff/nerf a random pokemon constantly for no apparent reason. Maybe Gallade is one of their favorite pokemon. Maybe they invested in some Gallade stocks. Who knows? Overall, we have to deal with this mess and that's why it's getting discussed. Not because it will change the outcome of anything, but because there is no where else to vent about this non sense.

[pachima]

8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

"the same people no complain that it's bulkier than it seems" 

I never pushed for a Gallade ban or against it. I only pushed against constantly changing shit up with custom bullshit. Considering I am the only one refusing the unfounded argument that Gallade has no bulk, you can't say "the same people" because the only references me and I have not pushed for a ban.

 

 

Also, nerfed Gallade was not irrelevant in OU because if it was it would have felt to UU. And even if Gallade did become irrelevant in OU, who the fuck cares? There is no requirement for Gallade to be relevant anywhere. Should we make custom changes to Caterpie to ensure it becomes relevant in OU? No. Gallade doesn't require special treatment.

 

And the reason we are discussing Gallade is because everyone knows what is going on here:

1. Devs fucked up by adding Sharpness
2. Devs nerfed Sharpness
3. Devs don't want Sharpness to stay nerfed, so they buff it slowly but surely until it goes back to it's original format

There is clearly a hidden agenda that we are not told because devs would no go through so much trouble just to buff/nerf a random pokemon constantly for no apparent reason. Maybe Gallade is one of their favorite pokemon. Maybe they invested in some Gallade stocks. Who knows? Overall, we have to deal with this mess and that's why it's getting discussed. Not because it will change the outcome of anything, but because there is no where else to vent about this non sense.

You may be the only person discussing its bulk here, right now, but not in discord, neither you were the only that also pushed the argument before. Sorry if the wording offended you in particular, but it wasn't my point. Just wanted to express that such is an irrelevant discussion to have as of the moment.

 

Gallade wasn't nerfed for long enough to be dropped, and it also suffered from a lag syndrome. I am sure it would drop if more time passed.

 

Everything you said after that just reinforces that if you want to discuss Gallade, make it when it comes to the absurd dev agenda, as you claimed. That's the only valid concern about it. Custom changes like that are an awful precedent and we should be discussing that instead of trying to argue its brokenness in a format that has proved countless times doesn't exist.

[gbwead]

59 minutes ago, pachima said:

You may be the only person discussing its bulk here, right now, but not in discord, neither you were the only that also pushed the argument before. Sorry if the wording offended you in particular, but it wasn't my point. Just wanted to express that such is an irrelevant discussion to have as of the moment.

 

Gallade wasn't nerfed for long enough to be dropped, and it also suffered from a lag syndrome. I am sure it would drop if more time passed.

 

Everything you said after that just reinforces that if you want to discuss Gallade, make it when it comes to the absurd dev agenda, as you claimed. That's the only valid concern about it. Custom changes like that are an awful precedent and we should be discussing that instead of trying to argue its brokenness in a format that has proved countless times doesn't exist.

The thing is that right now arguing that Gallade should go back to 1.5 is arguing for Gallade to be changed again. Enough is enough. We don't want this to change for a 3rd time in 6 months. At some point, even if Sharpness should be removed, nerfed or buffed is of no importance. We should aim for the status quo because we can't afford to change shit up every 10 seconds and have to go through all of this again. 

 

 

[Godhelll]

Sharpness Gallade on pokemmo it's nonsense, it should never have been implemented and simply be removed. It's good to add new features, but they first have to be consistent with the game, which is not the case. I don't understand why certain things are done blindly when a quick assessment would be enough to establish from the begining what is logical and what is not.

 

Draco Meteor Hydreigon is pretty stupid too and nobody is making the effort to talk about it since it got released again because we know that we're always talking in the void in this game, it's pretty sad that it never changes 😞

Edited November 28, 2023 by Godhelll

[YourAngst]

I agree about Hydreigon , sticking to my guns i belive it has no place here without the fairy typeing maybe the introduction of some legendarys could tame it but then again that can be restrictive when it comes to teambuilding and the only thing that kinda stops it from running circles around most teams / playstyles is its speed tier .

 

However i want to cut some slack to devs and tc  because the timeing of draco hydra being reintroduce and retestet is simply unfortunate due to us approaching events/holydays season and i think thats a big factor to take into consideration since most ppl will not bother to pvp as much or as tryhard as before thus decreasing the number of games being played and theyr quality, around this time of the year we ''lack the manpower'' to properly ''retest'' draco hydra ( no need for any more testing ,get it out) as sad as it is this one time i belive there is a valid reason for that.

 

Regardless if ppl choose to play the game and farm for the upcomeing events rather then pvp or take a brake from the game in order to make preparations for christmas , new year or just to start and spend more time with theyr fammilys and loved ones there no one to blame (again this time only atleast) .

For me its understandable that not everyone has either the time or resources to go out there and ''test'' draco hydra with diffrent teams , ev spreeds , movesets to fully understand its impact on the current metagame(nothing more to understand get it out ).

 

Another thing to possibility take into account for this silent treatment is that maybe the devs/tc are waiting for the new mechanic thats going to release with the ani event , at this point it could be anything maybe the so desired fairy typeing .Unless we get a response from someone soon ( and i don t mean the soon tm-ish we are used too) i think that the ''fastest'' action regarding hydra would probably be taken around the 2nd month of 2024 (i hope im wrong ) .

Untill then just like poseidon said abuse the broken mons and ''enjoy'' the metagame for what it is now

 

[caioxlive13]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:30 AM, YourAngst said:

I agree about Hydreigon , sticking to my guns i belive it has no place here without the fairy typeing maybe the introduction of some legendarys could tame it but then again that can be restrictive when it comes to teambuilding and the only thing that kinda stops it from running circles around most teams / playstyles is its speed tier .

 

However i want to cut some slack to devs and tc  because the timeing of draco hydra being reintroduce and retestet is simply unfortunate due to us approaching events/holydays season and i think thats a big factor to take into consideration since most ppl will not bother to pvp as much or as tryhard as before thus decreasing the number of games being played and theyr quality, around this time of the year we ''lack the manpower'' to properly ''retest'' draco hydra ( no need for any more testing ,get it out) as sad as it is this one time i belive there is a valid reason for that.

 

Regardless if ppl choose to play the game and farm for the upcomeing events rather then pvp or take a brake from the game in order to make preparations for christmas , new year or just to start and spend more time with theyr fammilys and loved ones there no one to blame (again this time only atleast) .

For me its understandable that not everyone has either the time or resources to go out there and ''test'' draco hydra with diffrent teams , ev spreeds , movesets to fully understand its impact on the current metagame(nothing more to understand get it out ).

 

Another thing to possibility take into account for this silent treatment is that maybe the devs/tc are waiting for the new mechanic thats going to release with the ani event , at this point it could be anything maybe the so desired fairy typeing .Unless we get a response from someone soon ( and i don t mean the soon tm-ish we are used too) i think that the ''fastest'' action regarding hydra would probably be taken around the 2nd month of 2024 (i hope im wrong ) .

Untill then just like poseidon said abuse the broken mons and ''enjoy'' the metagame for what it is now

 

Problem now is we are not knowing what to do. Ever since HAs got into the game, TC seems lost on what to test and isn't without reason, there is multiple threats on OU: Suicune, Hydreigon Draco Meteor, Dugtrio AT, Regens, even Chansey Wish-TP was considered by some players as broken(and i believe it are broken, is ridiculous you be able to heal almost any OU mon back to 100% by clicking 2 buttons, without any type of drawback), also there is not only mons being asked to be revised, but some of the rules, like the Timer Rule. Also there is events dropping more and more broken and meta-defining things. There is simply no way to start or proceed with any test. Also, DLC II of Scarlet and Violet is coming, will not take longer to the moveset changes be applied. Until the end of those set of changes, any test can't be done except if can be concluded quickly, because the progress done in 2 months of discussion, is suddently thrown out of the window with a new thing released.

Just to give a clear timeline to explain what is happening:
- When Serperior was released, they concerned about it and want it banned. Before any decision, the HAs was released. The focus got changed.
- Amoongus Regen arrived. People concerned about him and tried to ask it's ban. Before any discussion, Gallade arrived and the focus got changed.
- Gallade gets banned, they tried to ask regen to be banned again. Suicune dropped, focus got changed.
- People concerned about Suicune, and ask a test. Before anything was decided, Hydreigon Draco Meteor gets unbanned. The focus was changed. Again.
Discussions that we start never came to an end, because something that draws even more attention came. Now people don't even believe that we can properly conclude Draco Hydrei's suspect, because they fear that the feature released on Aniversary Event will be something that make Hydrei balanced, like Fairy Type(which is totally possible. Last update they remaked some of the move animations, like Pumpking's move animations and even Future Sight got a new animation, they proven that they can do new animations and this opens the window for Gen 6 moves & Fairy Type). 

Edited December 10, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Munya]

Can you please avoid comments that rely entirely on speculation such as "Everybody thinks this or that", or "They are waiting for this to happen or that to happen" without actually knowing, or being able to know.  People can speak for themselves, they don't need you to do it for them.  You should make arguments for/from yourself from your own thoughts/opinions, not for/from other people and what you think they may be thinking.

[Ziiiiio]

The fact is people love offence more, rather than stall. it effect many topics about balancing we are facing: PP nerf, DM hydre, Gallade... 

 

Another fact is that the they seem to be more interested in doing what players like rather than balancing(I'm not saying totally unbalanced). New HAs or legendaries wont break too much and we can see the expreience from the past. But once adding something from later generation, at least disscuss about it, not just "We have a surprise for everyone" 

 

Lastly I have to say PP nerf shouldn't be introduced in a game that cares about balance

 

 

 

[Doctor]

On 11/27/2023 at 6:05 PM, gbwead said:

"the same people no complain that it's bulkier than it seems" 

I never pushed for a Gallade ban or against it. I only pushed against constantly changing shit up with custom bullshit. Considering I am the only one refusing the unfounded argument that Gallade has no bulk, you can't say "the same people" because the only references me and I have not pushed for a ban.

 

 

Also, nerfed Gallade was not irrelevant in OU because if it was it would have felt to UU. And even if Gallade did become irrelevant in OU, who the fuck cares? There is no requirement for Gallade to be relevant anywhere. Should we make custom changes to Caterpie to ensure it becomes relevant in OU? No. Gallade doesn't require special treatment.

 

And the reason we are discussing Gallade is because everyone knows what is going on here:

1. Devs fucked up by adding Sharpness
2. Devs nerfed Sharpness
3. Devs don't want Sharpness to stay nerfed, so they buff it slowly but surely until it goes back to it's original format

There is clearly a hidden agenda that we are not told because devs would no go through so much trouble just to buff/nerf a random pokemon constantly for no apparent reason. Maybe Gallade is one of their favorite pokemon. Maybe they invested in some Gallade stocks. Who knows? Overall, we have to deal with this mess and that's why it's getting discussed. Not because it will change the outcome of anything, but because there is no where else to vent about this non sense.

I feel like this particular post is very relevant today

[CaptnBaklava]

1 hour ago, Doctor said:

I feel like this particular post is very relevant today

I see Dev's Gallade stocks rising today. Time to sell.

[HumongousNoodle]

Just remove Sharpness, jesus.

[Imperial]

Articuno has been confirmed, this will obviously drop down to NU over time.

 

The interesting thing to note is since they will be rotating as well, we'll likely see Zapdos soon. Although not broken, I definitely see this being potentially really strong in the tier.

[LeJovi]

We want Zapdos. 

[AlphaDrake]

3 months of discussion was done before Gallade was deemed as uber offensive, which was followed by 2 reworks being done to the sharpness modifier.

The calcs which showed the threat of gallade 2HKOing most common walls are still the same, suicune (a major introduction to OU meta) doesn't threatens it, it can still spam Sacred sword and psycho cut without much risks and SD sets will still stay as effective as it was before. So what made Gallade suddenly fit to be dropped back with the original 50% sharpness boost?

 

 

[Doctor]

4 hours ago, AlphaDrake said:

3 months of discussion was done before Gallade was deemed as uber offensive, which was followed by 2 reworks being done to the sharpness modifier.

The calcs which showed the threat of gallade 2HKOing most common walls are still the same, suicune (a major introduction to OU meta) doesn't threatens it, it can still spam Sacred sword and psycho cut without much risks and SD sets will still stay as effective as it was before. So what made Gallade suddenly fit to be dropped back with the original 50% sharpness boost?

 

 

To add to this, it would be understandable if we had a huge meta shift because of new HA introductions or whatever, but most if not every HA we've gotten since September-ish has been pretty much useless and irrelevant. There's no logical reason as to why they're trying so hard to push this specific Pokémon, why are we caring if Gallade, who had its very well established position in its own tier, falls back to lower usage tiers or not. Why aren't we buffing Milotic so it doesn't stay in NU and comes back to OU? Sounds ridiculous when I put it like that, but because it is. Exact same scenario here.

 

We could actually have a discussion if we weren't given, as always, the silent treatment, because that way we could elaborate on the arguments given by staff in the patch notes, "Sharpness is now 1,5x again because of this and that and we feel like this and those could benefit from Gallade being in the tier, yadda yadda". But without any reason, and like you said, after months of providing calcs, debating, and coming to a conclusion, we can't really say anything that hasn't been said before. Completely absurd.

[bobliu]

Tbh, in my point of view, whatever the sharpness number change, it should not be like 1.4*. The situation nowadays(1.5* sharpness) can be accepted rather than 1.4*, the 1.4* number is just a number come from nowhere, and there are no logic to support this number, It is unhealthy and strange.

[gbwead]

The tiering policy is getting bypassed by devs for unknown reasons. The decision is irrational from our point of view. There is nothing to discuss since we have no power and they don't share their reasoning. 

[Azphiel]

I think the Sharpness nerf to x1.3 was ideal for reasons I have stated back when nerfing the ability was the main topic.

I did vote against the reverting of the ability to x1.5. From my point of view this revert is being motivated by the need of getting as close as possible to the original game which is not compatible with the metagame we have in PokeMMO, or atleast not in this case. I agree with most posts above; Sharpness was nerfed to x1.3 for multiple reasons, and these reasons still stand. Reversing this decision feels like taking a step backwards. Why did we even nerf the ability in the first place?

 

[razimove]

Pointless discussion, community opinion are ignored as we've seen, and they dont really even bother to speak on it either.

[Godhelll]

Gallade's Sharpness back to 1.3 is perfect

[RysPicz]

Most of us remain quiet and we stopped engaging in discussions whatsoever because it became pointless. We can post calcs, present millions of reasonable arguments and ultimately, we still get something we never wanted or asked for.

 

Spoiler

TC please don't feel attacked, you're not to blame

 

[Munya]

It was felt  that the nerfs to the ability may have been hasty.  We have the technology now to revert the nerf without an update though so it can be dropped back down immediately if need be.