[PvP Updates] Gen 9-2 DLC and Reverse Nerfs

[Lumiere]

Hello everyone,

The next in game update will feature a wide list of changes for PvP players. This will include a general balancing patch for movepools for some species and letting things nerfed in the past come back with their real power to us.

====

Generation 9-2 (Teal Mask) Updates

With the introduction of Gen 9-2 Teal Mask DLC, movepools & abilities for some species have been updated in some way or another, so we have the pleasure to announce that this new stuff will reach our PvP scene with the next in-game update.
The changes are important and will impact in our metagame so we have taken note of the most significant ones:

About abilities:

• Piplup line 2nd ability is now Competitive. (Piplup/Prinplup/Empoleon)
• Shiftry's 2nd ability is now Wind Rider. Effect: When a Pokémon with Wind Rider is hit by a wind move or when Tailwind takes effect, its Attack is increased by one stage, and the move will have no effect on that Pokémon.

Movepool updates:

Spoiler

Aura Sphere: Infernape.
Baton Pass: Ninetales, Shaymin, Weavile.
Calm Mind: Tropius.
Crabhammer: Gligar. 
Gunk Shot: Weezing.
Healing Wish: Ninetales.
Heat Crash: Arcanine.
Leech Life: Arbok.
Night Shade: Clefable.
Rock Blast: Torterra.
Shell Smash: Torterra.
Switcheroo: Infernape.
Spikes: Gligar.
Toxic Spikes: Cacturne, Gligar, Shiftry.
Thunder/Fire/Ice Fang: Gligar.
Tailwind: Shaymin.
Vacuum Wave: Empoleon, Gardevoir, Golduck, Mienshao, Samurott, Shiftry.
Weather Ball: Altaria, Dragonite, Empoleon, Lilligant, Shiftry.
Will-o-Wisp: Shiftry.
Haze: Empoleon, Piloswine, Ludicolo.

====

Reverse Nerfs

1.- Hydreigon: Draco Meteor
Back to the end of 2020, Draco Meteor was removed from Hydreigon because for those times, this nerf was required for the reintroduction of the Pokémon from Ubers to OU. As stablished in our Tiering Policy: “If significant changes to the metagame have been implemented, these changes can be reversed through a suspect test if deemed appropriate by the tier council”.
That being said, the Tier Council believes that this move can be tested and reintroduced to the game as there have been many significant changes including important mechanics/items (like Assault Gear) and HA's that have been added to the game since it was banned.
We hope you can help to corroborate this decision to reintroduce it to our metagame. Enjoy it.

You can get more info about why it was banned in:
https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/123300-ou-suspect-test-draco-meteor-hydreigon/

2.- Gallade: Sharpness (x1.4):
Gallade has been one of the most centralizing topics in the OU metagame in our community in the last months. As we know, the introduction of its new ability “Sharpness” gave it a high scale increase in usage and utility, which culminated in the conclusion that it was too strong for our current metagame. The Pokémon had to be nerfed to be reintroduced from Ubers to OU, making its ability have been reduced in damage (from x1.5 to x1.3 multiplier) to make it easier to control the threat that this Pokémon causes. After a month of review on this mon and its nerf, most of the TC members has come to the conclusion that the nerf massively affected Gallade which has restricted its use abysmally (18% usage to 5-6%), and the goal of a nerf is to weaken the specie as little as possible. Therefore, given the current usage Gallade has in OU, we would like to trial a rework on Sharpness buffed to x1.4 during its testing phase.
               
You can get more info about why it was banned in:
https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/156841-ou-discussion-gallade/

====

This overview is about the most important things that will be added for PvP balance in the next update.
Remember that this is a confirmation of the new changes, they have not yet been implemented in-game at the time of this announcement. We hope you like them.

Thanks for reading.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Lumiere

[DoubleJ]

HYPE.

[pachima]

 

How TC sees sharpness on Gallade.

[GautSam]

Damn Sun teams got Buff. Gallade deserved it. Now we will see Torterra in action. Nice changes!! 🔥💪

[JurassicMick]

Hydre getting back its Draco Meteor AYOOOOOOO 

[Bertolfoso]

Hi, thanks for the post and for keeping us updated; I have a couple of questions:

 

33 minutes ago, Lumiere said:

Movepool updates:

  Hide contents

Aura Sphere: Alakazam, Infernape.
Baton Pass: Ninetales, Shaymin, Weavile.
Calm Mind: Tropius.
Crabhammer: Gligar. 
Gunk Shot: Weezing.
Healing Wish: Ninetales.
Heat Crash: Arcanine.
Leech Life: Arbok.
Night Shade: Clefable.
Rock Blast: Torterra.
Shell Smash: Torterra.
Switcheroo: Infernape.
Spikes: Gligar.
Toxic Spikes: Cacturne, Gligar, Shiftry.
Thunder/Fire/Ice Fang: Gligar.
Tailwind: Shaymin.
Vacuum Wave: Empoleon, Gardevoir, Golduck, Mienshao, Samurott, Shiftry.
Weather Ball: Altaria, Dragonite, Empoleon, Lilligant, Shiftry.
Will-o-Wisp: Shiftry.
Haze: Piloswine, Ludicolo.

Is this a full list of the moveset updates? Or just the ones you (TC) felt were more relevant? Because, while I do not have a full list of the new moves, I'm noticing at least one missing (Haze Empoleon) and as such I don't know if it wasn't added by accident, as a deliberate choice or for any other reason.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Lumiere said:

2.- Gallade: Sharpness (x1.4):
Gallade has been one of the most centralizing topics in the OU metagame in our community in the last months. As we know, the introduction of its new ability “Sharpness” gave it a high scale increase in usage and utility, which culminated in the conclusion that it was too strong for our current metagame. The Pokémon had to be nerfed to be reintroduced from Ubers to OU, making its ability have been reduced in damage (from x1.5 to x1.3 multiplier) to make it easier to control the threat that this Pokémon causes. After a month of review on this mon and its nerf, most of the TC members has come to the conclusion that the nerf massively affected Gallade which has restricted its use abysmally (18% usage to 5-6%), and the goal of a nerf is to weaken the specie as little as possible. Therefore, given the current usage Gallade has in OU, we would like to trial a rework on Sharpness buffed to x1.4 during its testing phase.
               
You can get more info about why it was banned in:
https://forums.pokemmo.com/index.php?/topic/156841-ou-discussion-gallade/

I don't fully understand this change. I do get how this was the first change (as far as I know) where a number was changed instead of a move being removed, but isn't the goal of a nerf to make the metagame as balanced as possible and not "to weaken the specie as little as possible"? As you said, Gallade sits at around 6% usage, which means it stands above hundreds of Pokemon in terms of viability in OU. Why is this not just fine? How much usage % should Gallade have? Why does it have to be OU?

To add more, while I do admit I have not checked any calcs myself so far, I do think that there should be more reasons to such a change, similarly to a suspect test. Does this change break any interaction? Do you believe OU has changed and is currently unbalanced to the point where there is a need for a stronger breaker?

[RysPicz]

This is starting to look very promising, I like it a lot. Plot gem Draco gonna hurt for sure, also Shaymin got a nice boost, so did Ninetales and obv Emp. Looks good, good decisions overall, keep it up guys!

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, Lumiere said:

2.- Gallade: Sharpness (x1.4):

This is the most riddiculous thing I have ever seen. There is no dmg mechanic in the history of pokemon battling that gives a 1.4 boost:

• Sheer Force x1.3
• Life Orb x1.3
• Hustle x1.5
• Choice Band x1.5
• Expert Belt x1.2
• Torrent x1.5
• Guts x1.5
• etc.

There was absolutely no reason for Sharpness to be added in the first place and now we're going to bend over backward just so this ability stays as relevant as possible. We're going to make shit up now? If that's the case, you're not prepared for the upcoming backlash. Imagine 1.4 is too strong of a boost, what next? We're going to go for a 1.35 boost? What about a 1.37 boost? Or even better a 1.3867556 boost? That would be so neat. Cmon this is insanely dumb.

 

Regardless of if you think Sharpness should be buffed or not, you can't possibly consider making such an absurd random change to the game just for the sake of annoying everyone. No one is asking for this, so why bother? What's the point? You're going to open pandora's box for what? People will start asking for custom nerfs and buffs all the time now. What's going to be next, you're going to nerf Regenerator to 31% instead of 33%?

 

Absurd. Unecessary. Oh and how the hell are we supposed to calc anything with a 1.4 Sharpness boost exactly? I rather have an authentically broken 1.5 Sharpness boost than this degenerate buffoonery of a change. I can't even believe for a second that a TC member suggested this because no respectable pvp player would ever consider something so outrageous. I'm not going to name anyone because I don't want to get in trouble, but you all know who I am thinking about and I got nothing nice to say about that person when it comes to their competence...

Edited October 4, 2023 by gbwead

[Munya]

32 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

Hi, thanks for the post and for keeping us updated; I have a couple of questions:

 

Is this a full list of the moveset updates? Or just the ones you (TC) felt were more relevant? Because, while I do not have a full list of the new moves, I'm noticing at least one missing (Haze Empoleon) and as such I don't know if it wasn't added by accident, as a deliberate choice or for any other reason.

 

There are indeed more, haze on empoleon will be a thing.

 

The change to Sharpness is largely a dev decision though the tier council was consulted. They wish for it to be as close in viability to what it was before without breaking the tier.  If it is broken after buffing it to 1.4 it will again be nerfed possibly to 1.35.

[gbwead]

Is this an announcement thread where we can discuss upcoming potential changes or is it an announcement thread where all decisions are already final? If all decisions are final, the thread should be locked, so people don't get the wrong idea and discuss for no reason.

[ArtOfKilling]

1 hour ago, Lumiere said:

most of the TC members has come to the conclusion that the nerf massively affected Gallade which has restricted its use abysmally (18% usage to 5-6%)

Can we possibly get a disclosure on the voting and on what basis/discussion was this decision made or is it gonna remain behind closed doors like how the Illuminati operates?

 

[Munya]

TC members are free to give their own opinions, we do not disclose votes no.   

 

As it stands now all of this is already in the next update, you are free to try and change minds but I cannot guarantee you will.

 

We would prefer this discussion to remain in one place, if it gets locked then someone is just going to open a new thread.

[gbwead]

In that case, can the TC members in favor of a 1.4 boost on Sharpness speak up, so they can explain themselves?

It would also be nice to hear from the TC members that are againt the 1.4 boost, so we can see both sides and not just assume the worse.

 

@Lumiere @DoubleJ @AwaXGoku @Azphiel @Huargensy @Axelgor

Edited October 4, 2023 by gbwead

[suigin]

Reverse the recovery PP nerfs

[Blu3Breath]

So Gallade was too strong for OU, so it was nerfed but still had enough usage for OU. I don't really see the need to buff it, not every mon can be OU (especially top usage). Does this mean other mons should get a random buff to become OU? I know the devs want to follow the updates for the games but that's impossible unless they retroactively remove moves that were deleted in the current gens. Honestly, it is nice to see that the devs are willing to implement these changes but this change to Gallade is not true to the original games and could push it back to ubers. 

[RysPicz]

give us Terrakion

[SweeTforU]

Awesome changesss

[Lumiere]

51 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

Is this a full list of the moveset updates? Or just the ones you (TC) felt were more relevant? Because, while I do not have a full list of the new moves, I'm noticing at least one missing (Haze Empoleon) and as such I don't know if it wasn't added by accident, as a deliberate choice or for any other reason.

Hello, thank you for ur reply, 
As said in the post, "we have taken note of the most important ones" but probably we missed some. Its important to let u know that this is not the fully list and they are the ones that we felt most relevant.
Thank you by letting me know about this one, I'll edit the post and take note of it.

52 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

I don't fully understand this change. I do get how this was the first change (as far as I know) where a number was changed instead of a move being removed, but isn't the goal of a nerf to make the metagame as balanced as possible and not "to weaken the specie as little as possible"? As you said, Gallade sits at around 6% usage, which means it stands above hundreds of Pokemon in terms of viability in OU. Why is this not just fine? How much usage % should Gallade have? Why does it have to be OU?

To add more, while I do admit I have not checked any calcs myself so far, I do think that there should be more reasons to such a change, similarly to a suspect test. Does this change break any interaction? Do you believe OU has changed and is currently unbalanced to the point where there is a need for a stronger breaker?

30 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Absurd. Unecessary. Oh and how the hell are we supposed to calc anything with a 1.4 Sharpness boost exactly? I rather have an authentically broken 1.5 Sharpness boost than this degenerate buffoonery of a change. I can't even believe for a second that a TC member suggested this because no respectable pvp player would ever consider something so outrageous. I'm not going to name anyone because I don't want to get in trouble, but you all know who I am thinking about and I got nothing nice to say about that person when it comes to their competence...

The best I can say in this situation is that this decision largely comes from the devs.

There was no voting process, the change will be implemented at their request, we were only notified of the change and that is why I added it to this post.

I hope you understand that not all decisions fall to the Tier Council.

[SweeTforU]

Ye Gallade 1.4 don't make sense plz push it back to 1.5 tyyy

[Imperial]

I would like to thank you for your transparency and better late than never, I definitely would appreciate more of this type of communication in the future. I think by making huge announcements like this, it gives players more time to prepare for the meta changes and make the appropriate investments to purchase/upgrade their Pokemon.

 

Anyway, if you guys look deeper into this - readding Draco Meteor to Hydreigon, slightly increasing the buff back to Gallade and also some additional power creep shows that the devs are keen to implement regen Alomomola, Slowbro/Slowking and Tangela/Tangrowth but want to try and find the reasonable balance between offensive and defensive gameplay.

 

Having said that, I'm sure we'll also get the legendary birds and other stuff soon... but Heavy Duty Boots should definitely not be added anytime soon.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Imperial

[gbwead]

35 minutes ago, Munya said:

As it stands now all of this is already in the next update, you are free to try and change minds but I cannot guarantee you will.

10 minutes ago, Lumiere said:

The best I can say in this situation is that this decision largely comes from the devs.

There was no voting process, the change will be implemented at their request, we were only notified of the change and that is why I added it to this post.

I hope you understand that not all decisions fall to the Tier Council.

I just want to understand. Which minds should we try to change? When making a case against this change, should we really tag Desu and Kyu?

 

2 minutes ago, SweeTforU said:

Ye Gallade 1.4 don't make sense plz push it back to 1.5 tyyy

100%

[Munya]

Ultimately you're trying to convince the devs.

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

This is the most riddiculous thing I have ever seen. There is no dmg mechanic in the history of pokemon battling that gives a 1.4 boost:

• Sheer Force x1.3
• Life Orb x1.3
• Hustle x1.5
• Choice Band x1.5
• Expert Belt x1.2
• Torrent x1.5
• Guts x1.5
• etc.

There was absolutely no reason for Sharpness to be added in the first place and now we're going to bend over backward just so this ability stays as relevant as possible. We're going to make shit up now? If that's the case, you're not prepared for the upcoming backlash. Imagine 1.4 is too strong of a boost, what next? We're going to go for a 1.35 boost? What about a 1.37 boost? Or even better a 1.3867556 boost? That would be so neat. Cmon this is insanely dumb.

 

Regardless of if you think Sharpness should be buffed or not, you can't possibly consider making such an absurd random change to the game just for the sake of annoying everyone. No one is asking for this, so why bother? What's the point? You're going to open pandora's box for what? People will start asking for custom nerfs and buffs all the time now. What's going to be next, you're going to nerf Regenerator to 31% instead of 33%?

 

Absurd. Unecessary. Oh and how the hell are we supposed to calc anything with a 1.4 Sharpness boost exactly? I rather have an authentically broken 1.5 Sharpness boost than this degenerate buffoonery of a change. I can't even believe for a second that a TC member suggested this because no respectable pvp player would ever consider something so outrageous. I'm not going to name anyone because I don't want to get in trouble, but you all know who I am thinking about and I got nothing nice to say about that person when it comes to their competence...

I don't judge TC. At this point we have the liberty to change mechanics to nerf things in ways that aren't natural. In no gen, Baton Pass doesn't pass stat boost, it was limited that way in Gen 3 but this was more a complex ban by smogon itself than a mechanic change by game freak. In no gen, Shadow Tag supress it's own effect after three turns. But those custom changes are on MMO. So the decision of doing a custom change has precedents. 

Also, like was sayed on main post, the goal of nerfs is to make mons just to be balanced, not kill the mon's viability. If they wanted to do a nerf that would kill gallade they wouldn't nerf sharpness in the first place, but remove the ability entirely, and the mon would be back on Never Used, rottering there because even on NU people would go for other fighters. 

(Also imo regen should be nerfed to 25%, if they wish to add slowbro or alomomola in the future, because this allow to outdamage and make progress against regens. If not regen is going to be broken)

(Also btw, it's simple to calc a 1.4 sharpness boost, on calculator you can edit the gallade with "No ability", and make the base power of the moves 40% higher)

Edited October 4, 2023 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

Just now, Munya said:

Ultimately you're trying to convince the devs.

Which devs are in charge of PvP? Should I tag all of them or some specifically? I don't want to bother people for no reason.

[Munya]

Rache is surely already reading the thread.  To convince them you're going to have to prove that a 1.4x sharpness is broken enough that it will end up UBERS beyond a shadow of a doubt, no testing needed.